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<p>Hey everyone,<br>
<br>
Mapping long-erased paths (and other old features) can be done on
OpenHistoricalMap: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openhistoricalmap.org/">https://www.openhistoricalmap.org/</a> . <br>
<br>
The correct way to put pressure on the municipality is to work
together with Balnam.be (in Wallonia) or Trage Wegen VZW (for
Flanders). They have this kind of experience and they know which
historical sources to use (such as the 'atlas trage buurtwegen'
and a whole heap of different maps).<br>
<br>
Even though I sympathise deeply with the contributor, OSM is not a
place for razed paths - it clutters the database too much and it
becomes very unclear what is in scope for OSM. Do we map razed
buildings too? When do we delete them? When they are razed 5yrs
ago? 10yrs ago? 100yrs ago? Again, all these <i>are</i> welcome
in OpenHistoricalMap, where there is some support by giving
end-dates.<br>
<br>
To touch on the topic of Wegspotter - he too mapped a lot of razed
roads which frustrated many within the community. Due to some
stupid techical issue, it took a long time before the community
could get in touch with him. Once we finally got in touch, we
could synchronize and align.<br>
<br>
Kind regards, Pieter<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07.08.20 08:53, joost schouppe
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAO2_g7+Ap_ggtsFWqmOh8LYi93aZxO39R3twGVY_7osYB70CBQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While I don't mind disused:* and razed:* to keep these
kinds of paths somewhere in the database, it is my impression
from previous discussions that there is some consensus that
paths that are really, really gone (there's a building on top;
or there's a lot of fences or overgrowth; it doesn't re-appear
from time to time) do not belong in OSM at all. Then again,
I've never seen anyone make a real effort to clean them out of
the database.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When someone starts adding a lot of this kind of path as an
actual highway type, then they should be stopped.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mathieu,</div>
<div>You say "He denied reverting the changeset, arguing that
mapping those paths was a way to put pressure on the Commune
and the owner in a discussion about the openness and
accessibility of surrounding paths for the general public. He
promised to delete the date once the case will <span
class="gmail-il">be</span> closed."</div>
<div>I only see one changeset discussion, so I assume you
discussed this in private messages? If you make a few
changeset comments, maybe some other people can join the
discussion there. Hopefully we can still change their mind
about this; if not we'll need to revert some changes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Joost<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 22:36
schreef Matthieu Gaillet <<a
href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be" moz-do-not-send="true">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">Good point.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A search led me to this discussion <a
href="https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails</a> which
emphasizes the use of the <font face="Courier New">disuse:</font>
or <font face="Courier New">abandoned:</font>
prefixes. </div>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">Matthieu G. (en mode mobile)</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">Matthieu G. (en mode mobile)</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Le 6 août 2020 à 22:15, EeBie
<<a href="mailto:ebe050@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ebe050@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"> Hello,<br>
<br>
In my neighbourhood somone mapped paths and ways
that don't exist anymore. I didn't want to delete
his work complete and <br>
deleted highway=path and replaced it by
historic=path and left name=Voetweg SLH°82. In this
way the path isn't visible in the usual map<br>
but it is visible in an editor and in an eventual
special historic map.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Erik<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>Op 6/08/2020 om 13:00 schreef joost schouppe:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The example Wouter showed hurt my eyes too
much, so I have deleted some bits; I marked a
few that maybe exist as fixme:highway for now.
The user also didn't snap roads to the rest of
the road network properly. <br>
</div>
<div>If they don't respond to comments, we might
have to consider a user block. A convincing
argument for them to do the work properly
could be that we might be forced to just
revert all their work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Joost<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op do 6 aug.
2020 om 10:45 schreef Wouter Hamelinck <<a
href="mailto:wouter.hamelinck@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">wouter.hamelinck@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me start by saying that I have all
the sympathy for the aims of the mapper. I
also have been working with communities to
keep vicinal ways open. I am also aware
that certain ways are only accessible
certain times of the year due to
vegetation etc. Even if a path is not
visible at the moment you pass there, it
might be at other times of the year. In
general I advocate leaving paths through
fields (even plowed) that are legal rights
of way. My reasoning is that as soon as
you pass with a small group a kind of path
will be visible. On the other hand, if the
legal right of way crosses buildings,
gardens, canals... it makes no sense to
put those in OSM. Nobody will ever follow
those.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With that in mind, I've taken a look at
some of the changesets that you linked to.
I didn't like what I saw. People who want
to check only one example, this is a good
one: <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/833838389"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/833838389</a>
There is no place in OSM for that kind of
legal fiction. Even not knowing the
situation on the ground, it is clear to me
that nobody will try to follow that track.
So I would say to revert changes like
that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for the arguments of the mapper:</div>
<div>* Putting something in OSM does not put
any pressure on the owner. Nobody will be
impressed by the argument "you have to
keep the way open because I just put it on
a website where everybody can put things".</div>
<div>* It makes the data in OSM useless. The
tracks in OSM are used on a daily basis by
many, many hikers. The presence of legal
fictions in OSM makes it useless for them.
They don't care where they should be able
to pass in theory. They want to know where
they can pass in reality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In conclusion, the mapper is trying to
have some very dubious advantage for his
personal use and by doing that makes the
data useless for all other users. For me
it is clear that those ways should be
removed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Wouter</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu,
Aug 6, 2020 at 8:21 AM Matthieu Gaillet
<<a href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Recently an user mapped a set of
disappeared “communal” or "vicinal”
ways. By disappeared I mean they are
physically absolutely not existent on
the ground. They were either plowed or
constructions were built right on
them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I believe it goes against the
general rule that states that one
might only map what’s visible on the
field. Additionally the mapping itself
was poorly done and the source
mentioned was not relevant.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Using the tag <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility"
title="Key:trail visibility"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(238,238,255);text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">[</a><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility"
title="Key:trail visibility"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">trail]_visibility</a><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(238,238,255)">=</span><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:trail_visibility%3Dno&action=edit&redlink=1"
title="Tag:trail visibility=no (page
does not exist)"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(165,88,88);background-image:none"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">no</a> is not
an option here since the user decided
to map a unmaintained track road (with
width = 4m !) that doesn’t offer such
option.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>He denied reverting the changeset,
arguing that mapping those paths was a
way to put pressure on the Commune and
the owner in a discussion about the
openness and accessibility of
surrounding paths for the general
public. He promised to delete the date
once the case will be closed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">Les sentiers
et chemins que j'ai repris sur OSM
sont légalement toujours existants
et personne n'est en droit
d'empêcher quiconque de les
utiliser, de les réhabiliter ou de
les débroussailler... c'est une
façon de mettre la pression sur le
riverain... dès que des alternatives
auront été créées et un bon accord
conclu, j'effacerai les données au
profit des alternatives qui auront
été proposées.</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>The changesets : </div>
<a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927383"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927383<br>
</a>
<div><a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927894"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927894</a></div>
<div><a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927825"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927825</a></div>
<div><a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927566"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927566</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What do you think ? I believe
that’s not a good way of doing things
(I don’t believe in maptivism in this
situation) but can’t really find a
clear position of the community about
this particular case.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don’t want to start a fight with
that user because he’s really doing a
great job at preserving the right of
use of those heritage vicinal ways by
confronting the Communes against those
unfair owners. I would like to show
him some string arguments to explain
him why his initiative is not good for
the community (If that’s the case).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for sharing your thoughts. </div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Matthieu Gaillet</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr">"Den som ikke tror på seg selv
kommer ingen vei."<br>
-
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Joost Schouppe</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Joost Schouppe</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Vander Vennet</pre>
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