<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>While I don't mind disused:* and razed:* to keep these kinds of paths somewhere in the database, it is my impression from previous discussions that there is some consensus that paths that are really, really gone (there's a building on top; or there's a lot of fences or overgrowth; it doesn't re-appear from time to time) do not belong in OSM at all. Then again, I've never seen anyone make a real effort to clean them out of the database.</div><div><br></div><div>When someone starts adding a lot of this kind of path as an actual highway type, then they should be stopped.</div><div><br></div><div>Mathieu,</div><div>You say "He denied reverting the changeset, arguing that mapping those paths was a
way to put pressure on the Commune and the owner in a discussion about
the openness and accessibility of surrounding paths for the general
public. He promised to delete the date once the case will <span class="gmail-il">be</span> closed."</div><div>I only see one changeset discussion, so I assume you discussed this in private messages? If you make a few changeset comments, maybe some other people can join the discussion there. Hopefully we can still change their mind about this; if not we'll need to revert some changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Joost<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 22:36 schreef Matthieu Gaillet <<a href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">Good point. <div><br></div><div>A search led me to this discussion <a href="https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails" target="_blank">https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails</a> which emphasizes the use of the <font face="Courier New">disuse:</font> or <font face="Courier New">abandoned:</font> prefixes. </div><div><br><div dir="ltr">Matthieu G. (en mode mobile)</div><div dir="ltr"><br><br><br><div dir="ltr">Matthieu G. (en mode mobile)</div><blockquote type="cite">Le 6 août 2020 à 22:15, EeBie <<a href="mailto:ebe050@gmail.com" target="_blank">ebe050@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
Hello,<br>
<br>
In my neighbourhood somone mapped paths and ways that don't exist
anymore. I didn't want to delete his work complete and <br>
deleted highway=path and replaced it by historic=path and left
name=Voetweg SLH°82. In this way the path isn't visible in the usual
map<br>
but it is visible in an editor and in an eventual special historic
map.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Erik<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>Op 6/08/2020 om 13:00 schreef joost
schouppe:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The example Wouter showed hurt my eyes too much, so I have
deleted some bits; I marked a few that maybe exist as
fixme:highway for now. The user also didn't snap roads to the
rest of the road network properly. <br>
</div>
<div>If they don't respond to comments, we might have to
consider a user block. A convincing argument for them to do
the work properly could be that we might be forced to just
revert all their work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Joost<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 10:45
schreef Wouter Hamelinck <<a href="mailto:wouter.hamelinck@gmail.com" target="_blank">wouter.hamelinck@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me start by saying that I have all the sympathy for
the aims of the mapper. I also have been working with
communities to keep vicinal ways open. I am also aware
that certain ways are only accessible certain times of the
year due to vegetation etc. Even if a path is not visible
at the moment you pass there, it might be at other times
of the year. In general I advocate leaving paths through
fields (even plowed) that are legal rights of way. My
reasoning is that as soon as you pass with a small group a
kind of path will be visible. On the other hand, if the
legal right of way crosses buildings, gardens, canals...
it makes no sense to put those in OSM. Nobody will ever
follow those.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With that in mind, I've taken a look at some of the
changesets that you linked to. I didn't like what I saw.
People who want to check only one example, this is a good
one: <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/833838389" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/833838389</a>
There is no place in OSM for that kind of legal fiction.
Even not knowing the situation on the ground, it is clear
to me that nobody will try to follow that track. So I
would say to revert changes like that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for the arguments of the mapper:</div>
<div>* Putting something in OSM does not put any pressure on
the owner. Nobody will be impressed by the argument "you
have to keep the way open because I just put it on a
website where everybody can put things".</div>
<div>* It makes the data in OSM useless. The tracks in OSM
are used on a daily basis by many, many hikers. The
presence of legal fictions in OSM makes it useless for
them. They don't care where they should be able to pass in
theory. They want to know where they can pass in reality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In conclusion, the mapper is trying to have some very
dubious advantage for his personal use and by doing that
makes the data useless for all other users. For me it is
clear that those ways should be removed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Wouter</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at
8:21 AM Matthieu Gaillet <<a href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be" target="_blank">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Recently an user mapped a set of disappeared
“communal” or "vicinal” ways. By disappeared I mean
they are physically absolutely not existent on the
ground. They were either plowed or constructions were
built right on them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I believe it goes against the general rule that
states that one might only map what’s visible on the
field. Additionally the mapping itself was poorly done
and the source mentioned was not relevant.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Using the tag <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility" title="Key:trail visibility" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(238,238,255);text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">[</a><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility" title="Key:trail visibility" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">trail]_visibility</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(238,238,255)">=</span><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:trail_visibility%3Dno&action=edit&redlink=1" title="Tag:trail visibility=no (page does not
exist)" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(165,88,88);background-image:none" target="_blank">no</a> is not
an option here since the user decided to map a
unmaintained track road (with width = 4m !) that
doesn’t offer such option.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>He denied reverting the changeset, arguing that
mapping those paths was a way to put pressure on the
Commune and the owner in a discussion about the
openness and accessibility of surrounding paths for
the general public. He promised to delete the date
once the case will be closed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">Les sentiers et chemins que
j'ai repris sur OSM sont légalement toujours
existants et personne n'est en droit d'empêcher
quiconque de les utiliser, de les réhabiliter ou de
les débroussailler... c'est une façon de mettre la
pression sur le riverain... dès que des alternatives
auront été créées et un bon accord conclu,
j'effacerai les données au profit des alternatives
qui auront été proposées.</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>The changesets : </div>
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927383" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927383<br>
</a>
<div><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927894" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927894</a></div>
<div><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927825" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927825</a></div>
<div><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927566" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927566</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What do you think ? I believe that’s not a good way
of doing things (I don’t believe in maptivism in this
situation) but can’t really find a clear position of
the community about this particular case.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don’t want to start a fight with that user
because he’s really doing a great job at preserving
the right of use of those heritage vicinal ways by
confronting the Communes against those unfair owners.
I would like to show him some string arguments to
explain him why his initiative is not good for the
community (If that’s the case).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for sharing your thoughts. </div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Matthieu Gaillet</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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<div><br>
</div>
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vei."<br>
- Thor Heyerdahl</div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Joost Schouppe</div>
<div dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/" target="_blank">OpenStreetMap</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/joostjakob" target="_blank">Twitter</a> | <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/joost-schouppe/48/939/603" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a> | <a href="http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/members/97979802/" target="_blank">Meetup</a></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Joost Schouppe</div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/" target="_blank">OpenStreetMap</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/joostjakob" target="_blank">Twitter</a> | <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/joost-schouppe/48/939/603" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a> | <a href="http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/members/97979802/" target="_blank">Meetup</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>