<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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<p>Thanks to Pieter for the link <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openhistoricalmap.org">https://www.openhistoricalmap.org</a><br>
=> It deserves more visibility/publicity I think, so as to
improve the cleaning of the main OSM DB...</p>
<p>I'm contributing a lot to balnam too. I make use of it a lot,
exactly to ensure or recover missing paths.<br>
Most of the time (80-90%), balnam does the job well and quickly.<br>
For the rest, I personally contact the local public authority. In
the past, it was not efficient at all and quite discouraging...
But now that slow/sweet mobility is more and more a public topic,
I noticed that many local authorities changed their mind and
quickly take actions when I warn them about some issue.<br>
=> Just got several good results in Andenne (usually never
responding) and Fernelmont (depending on the contact person).</p>
<p>My reactions to the user's comments:</p>
<p><b>Comment 1</b>: Not valid, they try what they can, but they
have nothing. The trick is just a question of communication and
the way to address the point. Just got a serious case again on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.balnam.be/sclayn/chemin/73">path 73 in Sclayn</a>,
but it's the last one of a long series, which allowed me to refine
my approach.<br>
=> Balnam is definitely the way to go, they indeed use also
various maps, including federal ones that are no more accessible
to us. Also, the local authorities have access to these maps, we
still made use of them in Andenne in July.</p>
<p><b>Comment 2</b>: The IGN failure is a distinct story. Sad for
them, but not related to the topic. There are regulations, local
authorities have to comply to them. I never and will probably
never make use of IGN anymore, they're "dead" because they did not
adapt to the modern reality. Even the military guys I met in the
woods of Marche-les-Dames use OSM, more up to date...<br>
Again, nowadays local authorities eventually comply and react,
much more than a few years ago. The best is to make use of this!<br>
</p>
<p><b>Comment 3</b>: The user points himself exactly to balnam...
Red lines are very visible, much more than a simple OSM map, and
make a good support for the discussion with local authorities.
Just for the demo, look at all the paths that were suppressed in
the area of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.balnam.be/andenne/sentier/195">Groyenne</a>.
The balnam layer makes it very clear...</p>
<p>The main point is that balnam is based on volunteers, it's not an
official service. But here again, due to the recent changes I'm
quite convinced that things are evolving in the good direction:
more and more people use balnam, more and more local authorities
face discussions on this, more and more people contribute to
surveillance... The recent results I got were not possible a few
years ago, now they are. At some point, there will be a public
service to take over balnam... That's a good way to force a
reaction. Once enough people are aware, public figures take care
of the topic, and here it's very positive.<br>
</p>
<p>=> If the user wishes, he can contact me: fgerin on OSM, fge1
on balnam.</p>
<p>++<br>
F</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/08/20 13:50, Matthieu wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1B449830-F790-45F6-9450-57D366732397@gaillet.be">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Thanks for these clarifications.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The user agreed to revert, not without explaining
why he still believes that the ways should be mapped. I quote
him below for the completeness. I advised him to use balsam
(ironically he *IS* a balnam volunteer !), will refer it to OHM
too.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Le premier réflexe qu'a un accapareur
lorsqu'il est confronté à des autorités communales est
le plus souvent d'indiquer que la voirie n'existe même
pas sur carte, le deuxième sera de dire qu'elle n'est
pas visible sur les photos aériennes.....</div>
<div class="">Bref, je crois qu'on est pas du tout sur la
même longueur d'onde et je le regrette.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Pour la petite histoire, un nombre important
de voiries ont disparu <u class=""><b class="">suite</b></u> au fait
qu'elles n'étaient plus reprises sur l'IGN (souvent par
négligence des géographes de terrain) </div>
<div class="">La voirie que vous voulez pouvoir utiliser
sans que le propriétaire du manège ne vous interpelle
est un voirie innomée sans véritable statut tant qu'elle
n'a pas été reconnue comme communale par la commune
(procédure longue et difficile, actuellement rarement
mise en oeuvre). C'est une voirie privée.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Pour tenter de la rendre communale, la
méthode la plus souvent utilisée est d'indiquer au
riverain toutes les voiries qui ont disparues (qu'il a
volé), cette disposition permet de
"culpabiliser" l'accapareur qui, bien souvent,
accepte par la suite certaines concessions.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><b class="">Je m'incline et j'enlève d'OSM
les voiries publiques accaparées autour des Hayettes.</b></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Matthieu<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 7 Aug 2020, at 13:44, Pieter Vander Vennet
<<a href="mailto:pietervdvn@posteo.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">pietervdvn@posteo.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Hey everyone,<br class="">
<br class="">
Mapping long-erased paths (and other old features) can
be done on OpenHistoricalMap: <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.openhistoricalmap.org/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openhistoricalmap.org/</a>
. <br class="">
<br class="">
The correct way to put pressure on the municipality is
to work together with <a href="http://Balnam.be"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Balnam.be</a> (in
Wallonia) or Trage Wegen VZW (for Flanders). They have
this kind of experience and they know which historical
sources to use (such as the 'atlas trage buurtwegen'
and a whole heap of different maps).<br class="">
<br class="">
Even though I sympathise deeply with the contributor,
OSM is not a place for razed paths - it clutters the
database too much and it becomes very unclear what is
in scope for OSM. Do we map razed buildings too? When
do we delete them? When they are razed 5yrs ago? 10yrs
ago? 100yrs ago? Again, all these <i class="">are</i>
welcome in OpenHistoricalMap, where there is some
support by giving end-dates.<br class="">
<br class="">
To touch on the topic of Wegspotter - he too mapped a
lot of razed roads which frustrated many within the
community. Due to some stupid techical issue, it took
a long time before the community could get in touch
with him. Once we finally got in touch, we could
synchronize and align.<br class="">
<br class="">
Kind regards, Pieter<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07.08.20 08:53, joost
schouppe wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAO2_g7+Ap_ggtsFWqmOh8LYi93aZxO39R3twGVY_7osYB70CBQ@mail.gmail.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Hi,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">While I don't mind disused:* and
razed:* to keep these kinds of paths somewhere in
the database, it is my impression from previous
discussions that there is some consensus that
paths that are really, really gone (there's a
building on top; or there's a lot of fences or
overgrowth; it doesn't re-appear from time to
time) do not belong in OSM at all. Then again,
I've never seen anyone make a real effort to clean
them out of the database.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">When someone starts adding a lot of
this kind of path as an actual highway type, then
they should be stopped.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mathieu,</div>
<div class="">You say "He denied reverting the
changeset, arguing that mapping those paths was a
way to put pressure on the Commune and the owner
in a discussion about the openness and
accessibility of surrounding paths for the general
public. He promised to delete the date once the
case will <span class="gmail-il">be</span>
closed."</div>
<div class="">I only see one changeset discussion,
so I assume you discussed this in private
messages? If you make a few changeset comments,
maybe some other people can join the discussion
there. Hopefully we can still change their mind
about this; if not we'll need to revert some
changes.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Joost<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op do 6 aug. 2020
om 22:36 schreef Matthieu Gaillet <<a
href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>>:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Good point.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">A search led me to this
discussion <a
href="https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails</a> which
emphasizes the use of the <font class=""
face="Courier New">disuse:</font> or <font
class="" face="Courier New">abandoned:</font>
prefixes. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Matthieu G. (en
mode mobile)</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Matthieu G. (en
mode mobile)</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Le 6 août
2020 à 22:15, EeBie <<a
href="mailto:ebe050@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">ebe050@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""> Hello,<br
class="">
<br class="">
In my neighbourhood somone mapped paths
and ways that don't exist anymore. I
didn't want to delete his work complete
and <br class="">
deleted highway=path and replaced it by
historic=path and left name=Voetweg
SLH°82. In this way the path isn't
visible in the usual map<br class="">
but it is visible in an editor and in an
eventual special historic map.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
<br class="">
Erik<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">Op 6/08/2020 om 13:00
schreef joost schouppe:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Hi,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The example Wouter
showed hurt my eyes too much, so I
have deleted some bits; I marked a
few that maybe exist as
fixme:highway for now. The user
also didn't snap roads to the rest
of the road network properly. <br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">If they don't respond
to comments, we might have to
consider a user block. A
convincing argument for them to do
the work properly could be that we
might be forced to just revert all
their work.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Joost<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op
do 6 aug. 2020 om 10:45 schreef
Wouter Hamelinck <<a
href="mailto:wouter.hamelinck@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">wouter.hamelinck@gmail.com</a>>:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Let me start by
saying that I have all the
sympathy for the aims of the
mapper. I also have been
working with communities to
keep vicinal ways open. I am
also aware that certain ways
are only accessible certain
times of the year due to
vegetation etc. Even if a path
is not visible at the moment
you pass there, it might be at
other times of the year. In
general I advocate leaving
paths through fields (even
plowed) that are legal rights
of way. My reasoning is that
as soon as you pass with a
small group a kind of path
will be visible. On the other
hand, if the legal right of
way crosses buildings,
gardens, canals... it makes
no sense to put those in OSM.
Nobody will ever follow those.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">With that in mind,
I've taken a look at some of
the changesets that you linked
to. I didn't like what I saw.
People who want to check only
one example, this is a good
one: <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/833838389"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/833838389</a>
There is no place in OSM for
that kind of legal fiction.
Even not knowing the situation
on the ground, it is clear to
me that nobody will try to
follow that track. So I would
say to revert changes like
that.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As for the
arguments of the mapper:</div>
<div class="">* Putting
something in OSM does not put
any pressure on the owner.
Nobody will be impressed by
the argument "you have to keep
the way open because I just
put it on a website where
everybody can put things".</div>
<div class="">* It makes the
data in OSM useless. The
tracks in OSM are used on a
daily basis by many, many
hikers. The presence of legal
fictions in OSM makes it
useless for them. They don't
care where they should be able
to pass in theory. They want
to know where they can pass in
reality.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In conclusion, the
mapper is trying to have some
very dubious advantage for his
personal use and by doing that
makes the data useless for all
other users. For me it is
clear that those ways should
be removed.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards,</div>
<div class="">Wouter</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug
6, 2020 at 8:21 AM Matthieu
Gaillet <<a
href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">
<div class="">Hi,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Recently an
user mapped a set of
disappeared “communal” or
"vicinal” ways. By
disappeared I mean they
are physically absolutely
not existent on the
ground. They were either
plowed or constructions
were built right on them.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I believe it
goes against the general
rule that states that one
might only map what’s
visible on the field.
Additionally the mapping
itself was poorly done and
the source mentioned was
not relevant.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Using the tag <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility"
title="Key:trail
visibility"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(238,238,255);text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">[</a><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility"
title="Key:trail
visibility"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">trail]_visibility</a><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(238,238,255)"
class="">=</span><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:trail_visibility%3Dno&action=edit&redlink=1"
title="Tag:trail
visibility=no (page does
not exist)"
style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(165,88,88);background-image:none"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">no</a> is not
an option here since the
user decided to map a
unmaintained track road
(with width = 4m !) that
doesn’t offer such option.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">He denied
reverting the changeset,
arguing that mapping those
paths was a way to put
pressure on the Commune
and the owner in a
discussion about the
openness and accessibility
of surrounding paths for
the general public. He
promised to delete the
date once the case will be
closed.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite"
class="">Les sentiers et
chemins que j'ai repris
sur OSM sont légalement
toujours existants et
personne n'est en droit
d'empêcher quiconque de
les utiliser, de les
réhabiliter ou de les
débroussailler... c'est
une façon de mettre la
pression sur le
riverain... dès que des
alternatives auront été
créées et un bon accord
conclu, j'effacerai les
données au profit des
alternatives qui auront
été proposées.</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The changesets
: </div>
<a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927383"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927383<br
class="">
</a>
<div class=""><a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927894"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927894</a></div>
<div class=""><a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927825"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927825</a></div>
<div class=""><a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927566"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927566</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What do you
think ? I believe that’s
not a good way of doing
things (I don’t believe in
maptivism in this
situation) but can’t
really find a clear
position of the community
about this particular
case.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I don’t want
to start a fight with that
user because he’s really
doing a great job at
preserving the right of
use of those heritage
vicinal ways by
confronting the Communes
against those unfair
owners. I would like to
show him some string
arguments to explain him
why his initiative is not
good for the community (If
that’s the case).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks for
sharing your thoughts. </div>
<div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Matthieu
Gaillet</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
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<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
-- <br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">"Den som
ikke tror på seg selv kommer
ingen vei."<br class="">
- Thor Heyerdahl</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Joost
Schouppe</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">OpenStreetMap</a> | <a
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class="">LinkedIn</a> | <a
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target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">Meetup</a></div>
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</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class=""></fieldset>
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<br class="">
-- <br class="">
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Joost Schouppe</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">OpenStreetMap</a> | <a
href="https://twitter.com/joostjakob" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">Twitter</a> | <a
href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/joost-schouppe/48/939/603"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">LinkedIn</a> | <a
href="http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/members/97979802/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">Meetup</a></div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Vander Vennet</pre>
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<span
id="cid:B1B7E9D7-9C30-4AA4-9B28-FF923643121D@gaillet.be"><pietervdvn.vcf></span></div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
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