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<body style="text-align:left; direction:ltr;"><div>The Ardennes should be on an equal footing with, say, the Condroz or the Kempen, which aren't mapped either. That means that a map like the one in Wikipedia with the reions of Belgium, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condroz#/media/File:R%C3%A9gions_naturelles_de_Belgique.jpg">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condroz#/media/File:R%C3%A9gions_naturelles_de_Belgique.jpg</a> ,cannot be derived from OSM. To make mentioning the Ardennes in OSM useful, all other regions should be mapped too, and I do not think at present there is much demand for such a thing. But I'll never object to a project of this kind: the power of OSM is that mappers with interests not extending to everything in OSM still can make contributions.</div><div><br></div><div>JanFi</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Karel ADAMS schreef op do 08-07-2021 om 14:30 [+0000]:</div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p>Je tends à être d'accord. Le principe de base est que nous
"mappons" tout ce qui est visible sur place. Ores j'ai survolé
l'Ardenne multiple fois (et avec grand plaisir!) sans pourtant
jamais voir aucune frontière Ardennaise :)</p>
<p>Karel<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/8/21 1:34 PM, Pierre Parmentier
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAN-00etKz4oxgtbKLh2KEWCQaNOYrD7PQ0mwZ=OTT+OBfoB6Yw@mail.gmail.com" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Hello,<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I was recently
intrigued by <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/890280505#map=8/50.022/6.059" moz-do-not-send="true">this way</a> whose name is <i><span class="" style="" id=":m5.1" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardenne</span>/<span class="" style="" id=":m5.2" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span>/<span class="" style="" id=":m5.3" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennen</span></i>. I think that
this type of data has no place in <span class="" style="" id=":m5.4" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">OpenStreetMap</span> today.<br>
<br>
Why not? First some references ...<br>
<ul>
<li>(<a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardenne" moz-do-not-send="true">https://fr.<span class="" style="" id=":m5.5" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">wikipedia</span>.org/wiki/<span class="" style="" id=":m5.6" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardenne</span></a>)</li>
<li>(<a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardenne#Communes" moz-do-not-send="true">https://fr.<span class="" style="" id=":m5.7" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">wikipedia</span>.org/wiki/<span class="" style="" id=":m5.8" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardenne</span>#Communes</a>)
Including a list of communes located in Belgium, the Grand
Duchy of Luxembourg and France].</li>
<li>(<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dmountain_range" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.<span class="" style="" id=":m5.9" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">openstreetmap</span>.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dmountain_range</a>)
</li>
<li>(<a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha%C3%AEne_de_montagnes" moz-do-not-send="true">https://fr.<span class="" style="" id=":m5.10" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">wikipedia</span>.org/wiki/<span class="" style="" id=":m5.11" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Cha</span>%C3%<span class="" style="" id=":m5.12" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">AEne</span>_<span class="" style="" id=":m5.13" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">de</span>_<span class="" style="" id=":m5.14" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">montagnes</span></a>)
</li>
<li>(<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountain_ranges#Europe" moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.<span class="" style="" id=":m5.15" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">wikipedia</span>.org/wiki/List_of_mountain_ranges#Europe</a>)
It does not appear that the <span class="" style="" id=":m5.16" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span> is considered a
mountain range.</li>
<li>In <i>Denis, Jacques. Geography of Belgium. Brussels: <span class="" style="" id=":m5.17" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Crédit</span>
communal <span class="" style="" id=":m5.18" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">de</span>
<span class="" style="" id=":m5.19" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Belgique</span>,
1992</i> there is a map (p. 137) that shows the major
morphological units of Belgium. The Northern <span class="" style="" id=":m5.20" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span>,
the Central <span class="" style="" id=":m5.21" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span>
and the Southern <span class="" style="" id=":m5.22" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span>
are among 19 other units.</li>
</ul>
It is clear from all this that the <span class="" style="" id=":m5.23" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardenne</span> is a geological concept.
The data does not belong to <span class="" style="" id=":m5.24" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">OpenStreetMap</span> at this stage.
Tags relating to geology are few in number and generally very
precisely located. (<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:geological" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.<span class="" style="" id=":m5.25" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">openstreetmap</span>.org/wiki/Key:geological</a>).
This is not the case with the way 890280505.<br>
<br>
OK, there are several types of boundaries in <span class="" style="" id=":m5.26" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">OSM</span>. But these are - generally -
official and public data which are not contestable. The
boundaries of the <span class="" style="" id=":m5.27" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span>
are too imprecise and hardly verifiable in the field by an
ordinary contributor. Who will arbitrate on possible boundary
changes?<br>
<br>
The route created by <span class="" style="" id=":m5.28" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Florimondable</span>
may be well-intentioned. But it seems to me to be unmanageable
in <span class="" style="" id=":m5.29" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">OSM</span>.<br>
<br>
But that's just my point of view.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I contacted
both the first (<span class="" style="" id=":m5.30" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Florimondable</span>)
and the last (Stereo) publisher.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I asked <span class="" style="" id=":m5.31" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Florimondable</span> the reason of this
way. He answered 'J<i>’ai <span class="" style="" id=":m5.32" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">ajouté</span>
<span class="" style="" id=":m5.33" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">le</span> massif <span class="" style="" id=":m5.34" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">montagneux</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.35" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">des</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.36" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.37" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">parce</span> qu’il… <span class="" style="" id=":m5.38" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">existe</span>. Pour <span class="" style="" id=":m5.39" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">sa</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.40" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">géométrie</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.41" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">je</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.42" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">ne</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.43" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">suis</span> pas <span class="" style="" id=":m5.44" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">du</span> tout <span class="" style="" id=":m5.45" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">un</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.46" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">spécialiste</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.47" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">de</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.48" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">ce</span> massif,
j’ai <span class="" style="" id=":m5.49" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">donc</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.50" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">fait</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.51" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">au</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.52" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">mieux</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.53" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">de</span> mes <span class="" style="" id=":m5.54" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">connaissances</span>.</i>'
[I added the <span class="" style="" id=":m5.55" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Ardennes</span>
mountain range because it... exists. For its geometry I am not
at all a specialist of this massif, so I did the best of my
knowledge]. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">For Stereo '<i>Si
<span class="" style="" id=":m5.56" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Florimondable</span>
n’a pas <span class="" style="" id=":m5.57" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">vraiment</span>
l’utilité <span class="" style="" id=":m5.58" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">du</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.59" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">polygone</span>, pas
d’objection à <span class="" style="" id=":m5.60" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">ce</span>
qu’il <span class="" style="" id=":m5.61" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">disparaisse</span>. <span class="" style="" id=":m5.62" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Je</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.63" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">ne</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.64" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">connais</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.65" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">malheureusement</span>
pas <span class="" style="" id=":m5.66" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">de</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.67" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">rendu</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.68" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">qui</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.69" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">utilise</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.70" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">ce</span> genre <span class="" style="" id=":m5.71" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">de</span> <span class="" style="" id=":m5.72" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">trucs</span>.' </i>[If
<span class="" style="" id=":m5.73" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">Florimondable</span>
doesn't really have a use for the polygon, no objection to it
disappearing. Unfortunately I don't know of any rendering that
uses this kind of stuff.].<br>
<br>
What do you think of this? Should we keep these types of data
in <span class="" style="" id=":m5.74" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">OSM</span>? The French
and the German mappers should be involved.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Pierre aka <span class="" style="" id=":m5.75" tabindex="-1" role="menuitem" aria-haspopup="true">foxandpotatoes</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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