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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Matthieu,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks for taking the time to comment back on this!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">When reading your explanation, the first question that pops up to me is whether we can objectively differentiate between the small ones e.g. on houses
and the big, industrial ones? What about medium sized turbines that fall in between? Is there a cut-off value or some other characteristic we can use?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Seppe<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="NL">Van:</span></b><span lang="NL"> Matthieu Gaillet <matthieu@gaillet.be>
<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> maandag 12 juli 2021 11:11<br>
<b>Aan:</b> OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [OSM-talk-be] Missing windmills data ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Seppe,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for reviewing my changes carefully !<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Good thing you’re cleaning up! The changeset is huge though, which makes it hard to review. It would have been easier if the work was split up into different changesets, e.g.
one for each type of change: “moving manufacturer and model from name tag to manufacturer and manufacturer:type tags” for one changeset, “adding generator:output:electricity=yes” for a second changeset and so on. That would also make it easier to revert one
of these big changes if something goes wrong or i fit is disputed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You’re right. Actually I was surprised to discover so many discrepancies and I didn’t expect that there will be so much changes. I will do it differently next time.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">That brings me to the generator:output:electricity=small_installation key/value combination. This is not documented in the wiki (as far as i can see) and to me, it doesn’t really
make sense.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I can understand that you want to identify smaller wind turbines, but I think the generator:output:electricity should not be used for this. Especially where you have changed
an existing value in Watts (e.g. “generator:output:electricity=1800 W” into “generator:output:electricity=small_installation”), I think this is wrong. It takes away detailed information (the actual output in W). I can understand the motivation for this (filtering
out small installations in queries), but I think this is not the right way to do it.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I understand that. I was myself not so sure about this but that « small_installation » value is proposed by JOSM, that’s why I decided to follow that path. <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:generator:source=solar#Rooftop_Solar_Panels">By
looking at the wiki</a> I see that that this value is mostly used for individual rooftop solar installations, which is exactly the same idea for individual wind turbines ! Therefore I think the tagging is absolutely correct.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Especially for the turbines that had a value in W, I would suggest to revert these edits. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I reviewed those 15 « small installations » Most were only specifying <span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">generator:output:electricity=yes or nothing at all. So I actually
<u>added</u> details. There was two exceptions : </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">The one with 1800W was actually created by me </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> and
as I really feel it’s a kind of gadget more that anything else from the energy point of view I prefer leaving it like this. </span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I restored one that was originally mentioning 50 kW of power output since it is as rather large installation, larger that a household one. There are more and more individual wind turbines of that
kind especially around farms.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I’m sure we can find a consensus on how to tag/identify smaller wind turbines. We can then document this in the Wiki and after that, we can see where we should add to (or change)
existing tagging.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I agree, there should be indeed a way to separate industrial vs private generators, they have really almost nothing in common except that they are producing energy with wind.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">There is an interesting proposal <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_generation_refinement#Dispersed_facilities">here</a> : grouping the industrial turbines
<b>into farms and power plants</b>, summing their individual power outputs. Most of the industrial wind turbines are grouped on a small areas. That would exclude lone turbines but those are quite rare.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So the user would have to search for wind farms instead of turbines to get an idea of the installed power (which is IMHO more relevant than the number of individual generators).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">What do you think ?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Seppe </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="NL">Van:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="NL"> </span></span><span lang="NL">Matthieu <<a href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Verzonden:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>donderdag 8 juli 2021 19:18<br>
<b>Aan:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [OSM-talk-be] Missing windmills data ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I reviewed all the nodes having "generator:source"=“wind” in Wallonia using JOSM, mostly by mass editing using various filters to ensure correct tagging.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I was surprised to see how many of them I had to edit (353 out of 499 nodes found). Most common errors were : <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">Missing one of many of the mandatory tags, namely<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l3 level2 lfo3">p<tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;background:#EEEEFF"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power" title="Key:power"><span style="color:#0B0080;text-decoration:none">ower</span></a>=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dgenerator" title="Tag:power=generator"><span style="color:#0B0080;text-decoration:none">generator</span></a></span></tt><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo3"><tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;background:#EEEEFF"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:generator:source" title="Key:generator:source"><span style="color:#0B0080;text-decoration:none">generator:source</span></a>=wind</span></tt><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0B0080">+</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">The latest being the most problematic. <o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">A lot had the manufacturer and model in the name field.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4">By locating isolated wind turbines (most of them are arranged in farms), I was able to find a lot of private wind turbines, for them I set <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:generator:output:electricity" title="Key:generator:output:electricity"><span style="color:#0B0080;text-decoration:none">generator:output:electricity</span></a><span style="color:black;background:#EEEEFF">=small_installation
to be able to isolate them in a dataset.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I hope the result is good and that I didn’t break anything. I randomly reviewed some nodes and my edits made sense.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The changeset is here if anybody wants to review :<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/107651694">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/107651694</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Matthieu<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 15 Jun 2021, at 19:31, Matthieu Gaillet <<a href="mailto:matthieu@gaillet.be">matthieu@gaillet.be</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Salut,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">J’ai récemment lu dans ce papier qu’aucune donnée précise n’était disponible sur le nombre d’éoliennes en Wallonie. <a href="https://plus.lesoir.be/378347/article/2021-06-15/eoliennes-les-communes-wallonnes-au-bord-de-la-crise-de-nerfs">https://plus.lesoir.be/378347/article/2021-06-15/eoliennes-les-communes-wallonnes-au-bord-de-la-crise-de-nerfs</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Ne serait-ce pas l’occasion de mettre la communauté à l’œuvre ?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Premièrement, remonter localisation des parcs éoliens<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Deuxièmement, faire un relevé sur place<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Troisièmement réunir des informations plus précises sur les hauteurs et les puissances. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Les communes disposent généralement de ces informations, à priori on pourrait les obtenir sur simple demande. Parfois c’est même décrit sur un panneau informatif. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">En bonus il reste à relever les éoliennes privées, surtout celles autour des exploitations agricoles. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Qu’en pensez-vous ? Comment démarrer ce genre de community-assisted survey ?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">L’état des lieux : <a href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/18oI">https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/18oI</a> - Je vois déjà que le parc sur Assesse est manquant. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Matthieu<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Matthieu G. (en mode mobile)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Matthieu G. (en mode mobile)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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