<div dir="auto">Hi Pieter,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In your first point, I understand. It is related to the endless discussion of whether a shop should have an address if it's in an addressed building and similar discussions. I'm all for models that make it easy to map and puts a little more work on the data user. However, that has its limits. Think of mapping roads : at some point, we'll start to map the road area (we already kind of do sometimes), and then some of the data we now map on the ways could move to the areas. I know from experience with polygon based road closure data, that that would be a complete disaster for data users.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Similar for camper sites : there isn't always a straightforward relation between the various infrastructure of the site and the outline of the site. Yes, you can relatively easily find the nearest toilet from a camper site. But often a mapper will add the availability of the toilet to the outline. Does the next mapper who adds the toilet as a node now have to know they need to delete the toilet tag?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Anyway, it's a complicated issue and I understand either position here.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best, </div><div dir="auto">Joost</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op wo 29 sep. 2021 14:17 schreef Pieter Vander Vennet <<a href="mailto:pietervdvn@posteo.net">pietervdvn@posteo.net</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hi Joost,<br>
<br>
> I'd say it is useful to add service:bicycle:charging directly
to objects, as it makes it easy to find "bicycle friendly
objects". Having this as "yes" doesn't mean you can't add the
actual charging location as a separate node as well (similar to
how a camper site can have simultaneously both the attribute for a
dump station as well as a node). <br>
<br>
I kindoff disagree with this 'double tagging', as it is not
maintainable in the long run. To stick with campersites, should we
also tag that there is a playground, a shop, a toilet, ... on the
campersite outline? What if there is a public playground just
around the corner? IMHO it is up to the data consumer to check
which points are nearby and to figure out what a 'bicycle friendly
object' is. <br>
<br>
> I wonder if the availability of a power plug indoor is enough
to conclude you can charge your bike battery there. If I were to
ask, I'd ask "is it OK to charge my phone" or "is it OK to charge
my bike battery" - and I wouldn't assume the answer to the second
question to be yes just because the first is yes.<br>
<br>
Good point, didn't think of that. Some cafés/pubs/... have
electrical plugs exposed in their dining areas which you can just
use, I was in the first place thinking about mapping these as they
are objectively visible.<br>
<br>
> A related thought is that if there's an outdoor plug, you
could also use it to slowly slowly charge your electric car. This
only makes sense at hotels/B&Bs I guess, because I don't think
you'd get meaningful charge during a coffee break.</p>
<div dir="auto">Which is why this outdoor plug should be mapped as a
separate point, with the full support of adding socket types,
power outputs and accessibility for various vehicles.<br>
<br>
> Do we really care if people can charge their phone though?<br>
<br>
I do, and the persons who paid me to develop the theme care even
more ;)<br>
I've even seen cafés which have a stand of battery packs to charge
your phone - but that is a paid service though.<br>
<br>
> Do we really want to map the answer to a question that could
be answered by a random employee? The next one might answer
differently. I wonder if we might be better off saying : hey, if
you want to explicitly offer power plugs to customers, put a
sticker on the door or on the plug, and then we can map that. <br>
<br>
Valid point - such a sticker would indeed objectify it. <br>
<br>
> Are there any cafes that actually actively offer power plugs
indoor? If not, I'd just leave it be. The only question I'd ask
then is "Does this place offer a dedicated place to charge
bicycles?" and add service:bicycle:charging=yes to the object if
that's the case.
<div dir="auto"><br>
Yes, there are - for example coffee shops in trainstations
typically offer those for commuters who want to work a bit on
their laptop while waiting for their train. These outlets are
sometimes even integrated in the furniture and tables; in some
cases even offering an USB-outlet too.<br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<pre cols="72">Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Vander Vennet</pre>
<div>On 29.09.21 09:58, joost schouppe
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Hi Pieter,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I'd say it is useful to add
service:bicycle:charging directly to objects, as it makes it
easy to find "bicycle friendly objects". Having this as
"yes" doesn't mean you can't add the actual charging
location as a separate node as well (similar to how a camper
site can have simultaneously both the attribute for a dump
station as well as a node). </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I wonder if the availability of a power plug
indoor is enough to conclude you can charge your bike
battery there. If I were to ask, I'd ask "is it OK to charge
my phone" or "is it OK to charge my bike battery" - and I
wouldn't assume the answer to the second question to be yes
just because the first is yes.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">A related thought is that if there's an
outdoor plug, you could also use it to slowly slowly charge
your electric car. This only makes sense at hotels/B&Bs
I guess, because I don't think you'd get meaningful charge
during a coffee break.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Do we really care if people can charge their
phone though? Do we really want to map the answer to a
question that could be answered by a random employee? The
next one might answer differently. I wonder if we might be
better off saying : hey, if you want to explicitly offer
power plugs to customers, put a sticker on the door or on
the plug, and then we can map that. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
Are there any cafes that actually actively offer power plugs
indoor? If not, I'd just leave it be. The only question I'd
ask then is "Does this place offer a dedicated place to charge
bicycles?" and add service:bicycle:charging=yes to the object
if that's the case.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Just my random thoughts on the subject though
:) </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Joost<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op di 28 sep. 2021 21:29
schreef Pieter Vander Vennet <<a href="mailto:pietervdvn@posteo.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pietervdvn@posteo.net</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">Hi everyone,<br>
<br>
I'm trying to amend the charging-stations/restaurants
theme on <br>
mapcomplete and want to add wether a
restaurant/pub/cafe/... offers <br>
access to electricity (e.g. to take the battery of your
electrical bike <br>
inside to charge it, or to charge your phone).<br>
<br>
However, I'm a bit conflicted on which tagging to use. I'm
thinking in <br>
the direction of
`service:electricity=yes|customers|no|ask_staff`. <br>
`service:bicycle:charging` would be fitting too, however,
access to <br>
electricity is broader then just charging bicycles and I
don't think you <br>
can take you bicycle inside of most restaurants.<br>
<br>
Note that charging stations (e.g. a plug provided at the
bicycle <br>
parking) should be mapped as a separate point with <br>
`amenity=charging_station` (eventually with
`access=customers`).<br>
<br>
Anyone have an opinion on this?<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Met vriendelijke groeten,<br>
Pieter Vander Vennet<br>
<br>
<br>
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