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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Samuel wrote: "Would it be counterproductive to map
cut-blocks? Well, not counterproductive, but maybe
"differently" productive" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks for your thought Samuel, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is exactly what I love in this
project, the possibility of being productive differently. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Mapping the entire planet through volunteers
work could have sound counterproductive five years ago<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Daniel<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Samuel Longiaru [mailto:longiaru@shaw.ca] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> March-07-11 12:17<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Connors, Bernie (SNB)<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> 'talk-ca'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping cut
blocks in "wooded" areas</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Good Morning Everyone,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the feedback on my question about mapping cut blocks in wooded
areas. I do appreciate it and understand the points that are being made
by Daniel, Bryan and Bernie. I've thought a lot about this, however, and
would like to address some of the points as it touches a bit on the varied
philosophies we all bring to the project.<br>
<br>
The arguments against mapping the cut blocks as openings in the wood cover seem
to fall along the following lines:... and I hope I am not over simplifying or
expanding too much:<br>
<br>
1) Change is the nature of the beast. When we map "wood" (or
more accurately, "forest" in OSM terms) it is implied that there will
be logging operations taking place within, with the result that the degree of
cover is constantly changing as is the maturity of the trees. To try to
keep up is fruitless. When one sees a wooded area on a map one should
probably just assume that it will be highly variable.<br>
<br>
2) There are people who are maintaining this information to a much greater
level of detail and accuracy than OSM could ever hope to do.<br>
<br>
3) To map them is counterproductive.<br>
<br>
I have to say that I am not entirely convinced by these well-pointed
arguments. <br>
<br>
1) Yes, change is what goes on in wooded areas. That's WHY we map
them. The value of mapping is often in what we learn by comparing maps
from one time period to another. It's important to map so that we can
track that change. Any map is simply a snapshot of what exists at a
moment in time and the maps themselves are outdated the moment they are made as
they are commonly based on outdated data. To use the argument that we
shouldn't map a feature simply because it will be out-of-date tomorrow, or next
week, or next year I just don't think is convincing. The neighborhood in
which I live in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kamloops</st1:place></st1:City>
has changed significantly even in the last two or three years. Houses,
businesses and new streets have appeared, trails have disappeared, streams have
been diverted. It's a struggle to keep maps up-to-date. But it
doesn't mean that it is pointless to map the features as best we can, with the
most currently available data we have available to us. <br>
<br>
2) The fact that better data exist elsewhere is great. Better data
lead to better forest management practices and greater
sustainability. But those data are likely unavailable to us or would need
to be heavily culled for those relevant to OSM. The City of <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kamloops</st1:place></st1:City> has incredibly
detailed maps of the city freely available online. There are overlays for
every curb, parking meter and telephone pole. Does that mean that we
don't map the city in lesser detail? <br>
<br>
3) Would it be counterproductive to map cut-blocks? Well, not
counterproductive, but maybe "differently" productive. I think
one of the beauties of this project is that we map things that are not just
important to ourselves, but maybe also to someone else. I get a real hoot
out of just browsing through the list of official map features - things
like... power=cable_distribution_cabinet, amenity=baby_hatch (where one
can anonymously drop off a baby for adoption) and barrier=stile vs.
turnstile. These must be important and useful to someone. ???
So are cut blocks useful to anyone who might use an OSM map or load OSM data
into their GPS? Hard to say. Maybe to an amateur birding group or a
geocaching club or to someone who is hurt and is looking for the nearest
clearing for evacuation. Don't know. Don't presume to
know. <br>
<br>
So am I going to start mapping all the cut blocks? Following my arguments
I probably should... but I probably won't. I will go back and clean up
the gross errors and inconsistencies I find in the CanVec data as it relates to
natural=wood, some of which are offsets along tile boundaries and inconsistent
mapping of cuts along power lines and pipelines. That will probably be
enough as it involves breaking and rebuilding relations which just make me
scream. But I'll try to clean up what we have first.<br>
<br>
Anyway, I hope this doesn't sound like a rant because it really isn't.
While I lean towards mapping them, the arguments against are well made.
We don't maps waves on the ocean... we accept that it will be variable.
Maybe natural=wood is similar? Dunno. That's why I asked for
guidance.<br>
<br>
Truly, thanks for your responses.<br>
<br>
Sam L. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From</span></b>: Connors, Bernie (SNB) <<a
href="mailto:%22Connors,%20Bernie%20%28SNB%29%22%20%3cBernie.Connors@snb.ca%3e">Bernie.Connors@snb.ca</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To</span></b>: 'Bryan Crosby' <<a
href="mailto:'Bryan%20Crosby'%20%3cazubryan@gmail.com%3e">azubryan@gmail.com</a>>,
'talk-ca' <<a href="mailto:'talk-ca'%20%3ctalk-ca@openstreetmap.org%3e">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject</span></b>: Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping cut
blocks in "wooded" areas<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Date</span></b>: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 09:28:45
-0400<br>
<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City>,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would have to agree with your argument. I have some knowledge of the
forestry GIS that is used here in NB and it would be a daunting task to include
cut blocks in the forest. There is more than enough OSM work in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> just
getting the road network built it would be counterproductive to spend a lot of
time on forest cut blocks.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Bernie.<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Bernie Connors, P.Eng</span></b><br>
<br>
Service <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New Brunswick</st1:place></st1:State><br>
<br>
(506) 444-2077<br>
<br>
45°56'25.21"N, 66°38'53.65"W<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.snb.ca/geonb/">www.snb.ca/geonb/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Bryan Crosby
[mailto:azubryan@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 2011-03-05 01:58<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'talk-ca'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping cut
blocks in "wooded" areas<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would tag it as natural=wood as I don’t feel that there is any
distinction between a 2-year old stand and a 250 year old stand in terms of
being wood, or forest. They are merely different ages. Licensees
maintain incredibly accurate and up-to-date maps that indicate the different
openings and their respective stages of development. They have dedicated
GIS guys that maintain these maps as fast as techies bring it in. I
suppose, in theory, an OSM tag could be used to indicate the stage of opening
development, but one would require the date of harvesting, the date of planting
and the dates of the silviculture surveys to accurately assess the phase.
Unless you are a forester you won’t have access to that information and
would be guessing. I just feel that attempting to seriously map out
such temporary features accurately goes way beyond the ability of OSM (at this
point, at least).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Samuel Longiaru
[mailto:longiaru@shaw.ca] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> March-04-11 9:43 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> talk-ca<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping cut
blocks in "wooded" areas<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I very much see your point which is why I was asking for some direction.
I guess it comes down to whether the map should reflect what we see at some
given snapshot in time, or whether it is reflecting the overall landuse
scheme. In short, while standing in the middle of a clear-cut, would it
be more accurate that my map show that spot as wooded or not wooded?<br>
<br>
Sam L.<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From</span></b>: Bryan Crosby <<a
href="mailto:Bryan%20Crosby%20%3cazubryan@gmail.com%3e">azubryan@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To</span></b>: 'talk-ca' <<a
href="mailto:'talk-ca'%20%3ctalk-ca@openstreetmap.org%3e">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject</span></b>: Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping cut
blocks in "wooded" areas<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Date</span></b>: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 21:11:20
-0800<br>
<br>
RE: cut-blocks<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As someone who has spent done time as a forest technician, I strongly advise
against mapping forestry activity. Cut block spatial data changes <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>daily</span></i> and any images used to trace are out
of date. There are literally tens of thousands of clear cuts in <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">British Columbia</st1:place></st1:State> alone
and there is absolutely no way OSM mappers would be able to keep up with
changes. Keep in mind that most clearcuts on crown land (and in some
cases, private land) are temporary openings in various stages forest
development. A 2 year old stand is just as much a forest as a 25 year old
free-to-grow stand or a 250 year old stand of timber. I believe that
mapping a privately held ‘Christmas’ tree farm would be pertinent,
but these are radically different from commercial forestry openings. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would also advise extreme caution in using images to map forest development
roads unless are working on a high traffic mainline. Many spur roads are
in various stages of deactivation. It may look like a road from the
outdated image, but it may have been completely deactivated and
replanted. A site inspection is the only way to be sure. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bryan</st1:place></st1:City><br>
<br>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">British Columbia</st1:place></st1:State><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Daniel Begin
[mailto:jfd553@hotmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> March-04-11 8:19 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'Samuel Longiaru'; 'talk-ca'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping cut
blocks in "wooded" areas<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Samuel,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
About tagging forested areas, I would use landuse=forest only if it is obvious
on the field that the area is managed/harvested, as for landuse=orchard or
landuse=vineyard. We have a lot of Christmas tree plantations in the area and I
map them as landuse=forest because it is obvious on the imagery and on the
field. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If it is difficult to determine if an area is under timber lease or not,
because it looks the same, I would keep it natural=wood...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
About Cut blocks, I would map the hole they create that wooded area. If
the area is replanted, then some OSM contributor will remove the hole you map
in 10-20 years from now! <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Mapping the reality is the best we can do and because the reality changes over
time, we can keep mapping !-)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b>
Samuel Longiaru [mailto:longiaru@shaw.ca] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> March-04-11 21:45<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> talk-ca<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Talk-ca] Mapping cut
blocks in "wooded" areas<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Everybody,<br>
<br>
I've been importing CanVec mostly south of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Kamloops</st1:place></st1:City> for the past several weeks and am
going to take some time now to go back and bring stuff up to date. One
question I have though is in regards to how to treat cut blocks in the wooded
areas.<br>
<br>
I see according to the map features wiki, that the CanVec imported tag of
natural=wood is technically not correct, at least for here, as wood is to be
reserved only for completely reserved/unmanaged areas. I guess most of
what I have should really be mapped as landuse=forest but I have not made the
change because what is under timber lease and what is not would be difficult to
determine. In one sense it's all managed to some degree or other.
But my point is rather what should be done with the cut blocks, which in some
areas constitute up to 50% or more of the forested area. <a
href="http://osm.org/go/WJ1cj_R">http://osm.org/go/WJ1cj_R</a> is a typical
area. It seems improper to keep them as wooded when they are clearly not,
and yet most are replanted and will be wooded again someday... or at least
that's what they keep telling us.<br>
<br>
I started mapping them as it truly gives a more accurate representation of the
current state of affairs on the ground... but thought I'd better get some
guidance before proceeding too far. <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Sam L.<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kamloops</st1:place></st1:City> <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Talk-ca mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Talk-ca mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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