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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And don't forget about:<br>
<br>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/products.html#coordinates">http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/products.html#coordinates</a></pre>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Best Regards,
Brent Fraser</pre>
On 9/18/2012 6:17 AM, Connors, Bernie (SNB) wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hello
Clifford,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
I am a surveying engineer and I recall one of my surveying
professors telling us about the surveying of the Canada-US
border along the 49<sup>th</sup> parallel. Below is a
snippet from Wikipedia (</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/49th_parallel_north">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/49th_parallel_north</a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">)
that explains what I recall my professor told us, but in my
own words, the surveyors in the 1800’s could not measure
accurately enough to place the boundary monuments exactly on
the 49<sup>th</sup> parallel. Both countries have agreed to
accept the location of the original boundary monuments as
the international boundary. The info below from Wikipedia
indicates some monuments up to ½ mile from the 49<sup>th</sup>
parallel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p
style="mso-margin-top-alt:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Parts
of the 49th parallel were originally surveyed using
astronomical techniques that did not take into account
slight departures of the Earth's shape from a simple<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsoid"
title="Ellipsoid"><span style="color:#0B0080">ellipsoid</span></a>,
or the deflection of the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb-bob"
title="Plumb-bob"><span style="color:#0B0080">plumb-bob</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>by differences in
terrestrial mass. Although the surveys were subject to such
limitations of early to mid 19th-century technology,
extremely accurate results were obtained. However, in some
places the surveyed 49th parallel is as much as several
hundred feet from the actual geographical 49th parallel for
the currently adopted<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datum_%28geodesy%29"
title="Datum (geodesy)"><span style="color:#0B0080">datum</span></a>,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGS84" title="WGS84"><span
style="color:#0B0080">WGS84</span></a>. The<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Chart_of_the_World"
title="Digital Chart of the World"><span
style="color:#0B0080">Digital Chart of the World</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>(DCW), which uses
the Clarke 1866 ellipsoid, reports the border on average at
latitude 48° 59′ 51″ north, roughly 270 metres (886 ft)
south of the modern 49th parallel. It ranges between
48° 59′ 25″ and 49° 0′ 10″ north, respectively 810 metres
(2,657 ft) and 590 metres (1,936 ft) on either side of the
average. In any case, the Earth's North Pole moves around
slightly, notionally moving the 49th and other parallels
with it; see<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_motion"
title="Polar motion"><span style="color:#0B0080">polar
motion</span></a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p
style="mso-margin-top-alt:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white;orphans:
2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">As
per treaty, lines between original established monuments
(1861) are straight lines on the chord, rather than curved
lines on the tangent, which generally keeps the boundary
some distance from 49 degrees north.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p
style="mso-margin-top-alt:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white;orphans:
2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">In
1909 the United States, United Kingdom and Canada signed and
ratified a treaty confirming the original survey lines as
the official and permanent international border.
Nevertheless, the difference of the survey from the
geographical 49th parallel was argued in front of the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Supreme_Court"
title="Washington Supreme Court"><span
style="color:#0B0080">Washington Supreme Court</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>in the case of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>State of
Washington v. Norman</i>, under the premise that
Washington did not properly incorporate the portions of land
north of the geographical 49th parallel, as laid out by
detailed<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System"
title="Global Positioning System"><span
style="color:#0B0080">GPS</span></a>surveying. The court
decided against the premise, ruling that the internationally
surveyed boundary also served as the state boundary,
regardless of its actual position.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bernie.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#17365D">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Bernie
Connors, P.Eng<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C00000">Land
Information Infrastructure Unit, SNB<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C00000"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bernie.connors@snb.ca"><span
style="color:#C00000">bernie.connors@snb.ca</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C00000"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Clifford Snow [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:clifford@snowandsnow.us">mailto:clifford@snowandsnow.us</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 2012-09-18 00:16<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Talk-ca] (no subject)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm doing some work in the Washington State
and noticed some problems along the border between BC and
Washington State. I asked for help on the talk-us mailing
list.<br>
<br>
I originally though the border was incorrect. However,
because the border doesn't track exactly along the 49th
parallel there appears to be some administrative areas that
don't match up with the actual border. See <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.9803&lon=-121.7579&zoom=12&layers=M"
target="_blank">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.9803&lon=-121.7579&zoom=12&layers=M</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Paul Norman wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:49 PM, Paul
Norman <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:penorman@mac.com" target="_blank">penorman@mac.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
survey points are based on IBC data (which they view
as PD) and are supposed to be accurate within a few cm
and the limits of NAD83 to WGS84 conversion (a few
more cm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’ve
verified a few by the lower mainland with survey and
against a few sources of accurate imagery and their
data seems accurate within the limits of the imagery.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
can see a clearing along parts of the border in that
area so it’s accurate to within 20 meters.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
know that Washington State argued that they were not
responsible for the border costs in Blaine because
it was not part of the state since the state ended
at the 49<sup>th</sup> parallel and the border is
north of the 49<sup>th</sup> there.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What
I’ll do is go and eliminate duplicate border ways,
like I did with the lower mainland.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
There is a large multipolygon with a source of "CanVec 6.0 -
NRCan" that should probably extend to the border. However I'm
not sure. I'm wondering if anyone in Canada could investigate.
The area is defined as natural=wood. <br>
<br>
BTW - I'm using USDA National Forest Services Topo Maps to add
in rivers, streams, etc. I see streams coming into the US from
BC, but we don't have any corresponding stream in Washington.<br>
<br>
Clifford<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have promised to cut down on my swearing
and drinking, which I have. Unfortunately, this has left me
dim-witted and nearly speechless. Adapted from <i>The Lion</i>
by Nelson DeMille<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-or-<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you can't explain it simply, you don't
understand it well enough. Albert Einstein<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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