<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><br><font face="Arial" size="2">Frank Steggink november 13 2012 15h37</font></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><font face="Arial" size="2"><font size="2">an<font size="2">swering <font size="2">P<font size="2">aul <font size="2">Norman</font></font></font></font></font></font></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">> However, time is limited, so I eventually decided
to stop. The reasons which motivated me doing imports are no longer
enough to continue. It is</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">> partially due to the criticism of you and
others. If my contributions are not accepted / acceptable, there is no
reason to continue, so I can better stop.</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">> I also think that OSM has
caused a lot of awareness for open data, and governments are opening up
much more. For example, also in the</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">> Netherlands a lot of datasets have
become open data, like the national road register, buildings, and
topography. Of course, with the availability of</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">> Canvec, this is also
true in Canada. So for many geospatial professionals there is not much
reason to continue OSM, except when you're interested</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">> in areas for which
no other alternative exists (cycling routes, historic buildings, etc.).<br><br>Frank,</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">I came too late to OSM to see the mapping parties like the ones you were participating in Sherbrooke. I think that we should come back to that spirit, <br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">For OSM to be a success in Canada, we need stronger local communities, pursue imports and improve over it. Lets compare us to France. Discussions on the Osm-France list show a well organize community, a lot
of projects, servers, monitoring tools, blog, mapping parties even in schools, support of local communities, contacts with municipalities and other organizations. They show a very good dynamism. In comparison, I have to say that in Canada we not only have a blank map, we also have a blank participation. I would also like to see criticisms about imports accompanied with more suggestions to improve. Otherwise, it is just killing the OSM project.</div><br><div> </div><div><span style="font-style:italic;color:rgb(0, 0, 191);font-weight:bold;">Pierre <br></span><br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">De :</span></b> Frank Steggink <steggink@steggink.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">À :</span></b> talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Envoyé le :</span></b> Mardi 13 novembre 2012 15h37<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Objet :</span></b> Re: [Talk-ca] Internal CanVec conflicts<br> </font> </div> <br>Hi Paul,<br><br>It probably won't come to you as a surprise if I would say it is acceptable, but to a certain degree. A map with no data is not a map. A map with inconsistent data is still a map, but obviously something is not right. A map with perfectly consistent data doesn't need to tell the truth either. Remember the fantasy city someone added about a month ago? Furthermore, a map can become outdated. This is also true for OSM.<br><br>Anyways, the reason I've been importing Canvec data is to provide more coverage, so others can work with it. OSM is a
community project, and I think everyone has a share in it. This is one of the main reasons I started with OSM, because I believe in the ideals and goals. To you it might sound that importers like me are leaving a "big mess" behind for others to deal with. To me, it was a choice. The alternative would be either no data, or very sparse and incomplete data. It would take ages to "complete" the map, since there are not nearly as much mappers in Canada as there are in Germany. A map which is only half complete doesn't have half the value of a complete map, but way less. That's also the reason I imported forests in suburban areas. It can still be cleaned up later. Leaving the forest out of it leaves an ugly gap, and fixing it during the import is so time consuming the import would go on endlessly (which it does already...).<br><br>Also, many or most people who are mapping with OSM do not have a mapping or geospatial background. Let me be clear, I think it is
wonderful that they join OSM and step upon the learning curve to become a contributor. On the other hand, in many cases the quality of their contributions are not that great. I also don't like the fact that something is abandoned half-way (like the Canvec import). So the choice I made was to provide them and the rest of the community with some kind of baseline. With the Canvec data imported, it makes it easier for people to add POI's and other stuff. And while importing, I also fixed other errors which existed in the maps. Of course not all of them, but what would be reasonably possible from my armchair. Furthermore, the imports I've done about half a year ago were aimed at filling gaps between existing imports. It is a pretty daunting task, so it is no surprise many have stopped, and I just wanted to get the job done.<br><br>However, time is limited, so I eventually decided to stop. The reasons which motivated me doing imports are no longer enough to
continue. It is partially due to the criticism of you and others. If my contributions are not accepted / acceptable, there is no reason to continue, so I can better stop. I also think that OSM has caused a lot of awareness for open data, and governments are opening up much more. For example, also in the Netherlands a lot of datasets have become open data, like the national road register, buildings, and topography. Of course, with the availability of Canvec, this is also true in Canada. So for many geospatial professionals there is not much reason to continue OSM, except when you're interested in areas for which no other alternative exists (cycling routes, historic buildings, etc.).<br><br>Frank<br><br>On 10-11-2012 12:37, Paul Norman wrote:<br>> CanVec data comes from multiple sources and this can lead to internal<br>> inconsistencies. A common case is a new development where there used to be<br>> trees. The tree data in CanVec might be older
and show an area as forested<br>> while there is newer road data indicating that the area has been developed.<br>> An example of this type is<br>> <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=45.695&lon=-73.905&zoom=17" target="_blank">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=45.695&lon=-73.905&zoom=17</a> although I have<br>> seen many other cases of it.<br>> <br>> Another common case is the trees in water problem frequently found in BC. A<br>> typical example is<br>> <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.648&lon=-123.911&zoom=17" target="_blank">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.648&lon=-123.911&zoom=17</a> where there is<br>> a conflict between the water data and the forest data. You need to view the<br>> data as it doesn't show up on the rendering.<br>> <br>> Is it the communities view that it is okay to import CanVec without<br>> reconciling the internal differences between
the layers?<br>> <br>> My view is that importing data without resolving conflicts of this type<br>> where it conflicts with either existing data or internally is not an<br>> acceptable import and indicates the importer did not sufficiently review<br>> what they were uploading.<br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Talk-ca mailing list<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br>> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br>> <br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Talk-ca mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca"
target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></body></html>