<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8378">Merci à vous deux. Pour ce qui est de Jochen, je l'invite à descendre au niveau des paqueretes et apprendre le respect, la communication plus positive ;)</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8379"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8380">La requête Overpass peut être utilisée directement dans JOSM</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8383">Fichier / Téléchargement depuis Overpass-API<br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8196"><span></span></div><div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8197"><span style="font-style:italic;color:rgb(0, 0, 191);font-weight:bold;"> <br><font face="garamond, new york, times, serif">Pierre </font><br></span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8202"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8206" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8205"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, linéale; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8204"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8203"> <font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8207" face="Arial" size="2"> <hr id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8248" size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">De :</span></b> James <james2432@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">À :</span></b> Frank Steggink <steggink@steggink.org> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc :</span></b> Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Envoyé le :</span></b> samedi 1 juillet 2017 8h25<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Objet :</span></b> Re: [Talk-ca] Multipolygon problems<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1498921844043_8224"><br><div id="yiv0769267942"><div><div>Error free Québec, just in time for Canada day! Good job Pierre :-)</div><div class="yiv0769267942gmail_extra"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv0769267942yqt1022181419" id="yiv0769267942yqtfd55811"><div class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote">On Jul 1, 2017 4:34 AM, "Frank Steggink" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:steggink@steggink.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:steggink@steggink.org">steggink@steggink.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hi Jochen,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Maybe a MapRoulette challenge might even not be necessary. Yesterday I started to clean up a bit in Québec, but since it was already past midnight for me, I wanted to continue this morning. To my surprise Pierre has done a lot of work and now the entire province of Québec looks to be free from these errors. I just could find three errors, and fixed them. Bon travail, Pierre!<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The OSM inspector will still be a good idea, in order to spot future errors.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
To all, this is the procedure I used yesterday, and probably something similar also by Pierre.<br clear="none">
* Not sure if it is a requirement, but it's better to use 64 bit Java.<br clear="none">
* You'll need JOSM with the remote control plugin. You'll also need to start JOSM.<br clear="none">
* Use Pierre's Overpass query (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/q5K">http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/q5 K</a>), and zoom/pan to the area of interest.<br clear="none">
* Press Run and let Overpass do its work. Don't be afraid when Overpass mentions that the result is huge if you have a modern computer. Last night I wasn't experiencing any problems with 30MB data.<br clear="none">
* Press Export, and choose JOSM. Press "Repair query" when Overpass asks you to decide.<br clear="none">
* JOSM starts downloading the data. Note that you're only getting the outer rings.<br clear="none">
* Go to these rings one by one, and load data (at least you'll need the relationship itself).<br clear="none">
* Remove the natural=wood tag from the outer ring.<br clear="none">
* Eventually JOSM starts looking cluttered, because of all the extra data. You can use the search query "type:way natural=wood role:outer" to see if there are still rings needing work.<br clear="none">
* Upload your changes. Be prepared to handle conflicts if someone else is working near you on this issue as well.<br clear="none">
* After a while, check Overpass Turbo again.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I'm not sure what the update frequency is, but Pierre's changes from 4 hours ago were already processed.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Good luck!<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Frank<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 01-07-2017 09:52, Jochen Topf wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 11:47:36PM +0200, Frank Steggink wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
On 30-06-2017 21:21, Jochen Topf wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 08:16:40PM +0200, Frank Steggink wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Maybe I'm not understanding it, but in the OSM inspector [1] I just see one<br clear="none">
case of old style multipolygon, in Manitoba. Last week, when you posted your<br clear="none">
original message, I just saw one case in New Brunswick. IIRC, it was a park,<br clear="none">
not even from the Canvec import.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
The types of problems I am talking about don't show up in the OSM<br clear="none">
inspector. This is not old-style multipolygons (where tags are on the<br clear="none">
outer ways and not on the relation), but multipolygons where the tags<br clear="none">
are on the relation AND on the ways.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
Ah, ok, now I understand. Since there was a lot of discussion about old<br clear="none">
style multipolygon tagging, and since this type of problem hasn't been added<br clear="none">
to OSM inspector, this wasn't immediately obvious.<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
In the OSM inspector other errors can be seen, but the most prevalent one is<br clear="none">
"Touching rings". Maybe indeed a case of suboptimal mapping, but nothing<br clear="none">
which seems urgent to me.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Here is an example of a forest multipolygon, imported by me<br clear="none">
(canvec_fsteggink). It is still version 1, but it has tags on the relation,<br clear="none">
not on the rings (except for the quarries): [2]<br clear="none">
This is from Canvec v7.0. IIRC, we started at v6.0, and the last version I<br clear="none">
know of is v10.0. Maybe v6.0 had wrong tagging, but I'm not seeing any such<br clear="none">
cases in the OSM inspector.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
So, I'd like to ask you to give a couple of examples where data imported<br clear="none">
from Canvec is clearly wrong with regard to old style multipolygon tagging.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
Here are all cases in Canada (not only those from the imports):<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://tmp.jochentopf.com/954226a3acab882d28d8500ddef8203d/same-tags-ca.pbf">https://tmp.jochentopf.com/954 226a3acab882d28d8500ddef8203d/ same-tags-ca.pbf</a><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Here is one example where you can clearly see the problem:<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/541821">http://www.openstreetmap.org/r elation/541821</a><br clear="none">
</blockquote>
How difficult would it be to add this to OSM inspector? Not everybody has<br clear="none">
Postgres running, and is able to use osm2pgsql. Yes, there is documentation,<br clear="none">
but it requires some technical skills. Also, it would be very convenient to<br clear="none">
have this updated daily.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
It is not that difficult to add to the OSM Inspector and if I have the<br clear="none">
time I'll work on that together with the Geofabrik people.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
When we have clear examples, then it might be easier to come up with a plan<br clear="none">
how to fix it. But so far, I see absolutely no reason why Canada stands out<br clear="none">
in a negative way. Yes, we all acknowledge that Canvec data is suboptimal,<br clear="none">
but as others already have pointed out, mapping everything by hand in<br clear="none">
especially remote areas is nearly impossible.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
Canada stands out in a negative way, because<br clear="none">
a) there are so many problems. Nearly a third of the cases worldwide are in<br clear="none">
Canada and<br clear="none">
b) most of these problems are probably caused by one little program, the<br clear="none">
program used to convert/import the CanVec data.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
As you might have noticed, later imports, like the example I provided, don't<br clear="none">
have that issue anymore. I'm mentioning this to express that not _all_<br clear="none">
Canvec data is at fault! Only the first couple of versions. However, for<br clear="none">
some reason this was never noticed up until a point that collaborative<br clear="none">
action was done to have it fixed. Probably because the rendering pipeline of<br clear="none">
the slippy map was accepting this kind of tagging up until recently.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
Okay, that is a big relief already. At least we are not making this<br clear="none">
problem worse by new imports that might happen in the future.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Mapping Canada "by hand" might be difficult because it is such a huge<br clear="none">
country and there aren't that many mappers. But the same arguments goes<br clear="none">
for why you have to be extra careful importing data. If you break<br clear="none">
something, there are not enough people to fix it manually. And, yes,<br clear="none">
errors do happen. And if we find them, we fix them and move on. But<br clear="none">
errors from imports can be so huge there aren't enough people there to<br clear="none">
fix them manually.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
The world is so huge that there aren't enough people to create and maintain<br clear="none">
a global world map. However, OSM exists. Fixing errors can also be<br clear="none">
crowdsourced. Martijn van Exel is really doing a great job with MapRoulette,<br clear="none">
for instance. Although fixing errors (cleaning up the mess left behind by<br clear="none">
others) is not nearly as rewarding as mapping, it might be easier to do,<br clear="none">
especially since there is no need for a lot of creativity when fixing the<br clear="none">
same kind of errors.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
You might have seen that I spent a lot of time in the last months to<br clear="none">
create more than 60 Maproulette challenges for all sorts of different<br clear="none">
multipolygon problems in different communities. And the community worked<br clear="none">
tirelessly on all these problems. (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://area.jochentopf.com/fixed.html">http://area.jochentopf.com/fi xed.html</a>)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
If the Canadian community steps up and is willing to do this work<br clear="none">
manually, I'd he happy to provide such Maproulette challenges. I have<br clear="none">
challenges running at this moment for this exact problem for other parts<br clear="none">
of the world (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://area.jochentopf.com/fixing.html">http://area.jochentopf.com/fi xing.html</a>). But I wanted to<br clear="none">
give the Canadian community the chance for some input first, because of<br clear="none">
the unique situation here.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Personally, I think that, although things were far from perfect, they were<br clear="none">
done with the best intentions and with the support of the majority of the<br clear="none">
Canadian OSM community. We have to deal with this situation now. A much more<br clear="none">
cooperative tone would have been very welcome, especially since you would<br clear="none">
like to see us coming off our lazy butts and fix our mess.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
There is really nothing to gain by threatening to contact the DWG in order<br clear="none">
to have those imports removed. They already exist for about 7 years! And if<br clear="none">
the Canadian community at large wouldn't have welcomed it, this would have<br clear="none">
come to the surface way sooner. So, why has this suddenly become such a<br clear="none">
huge problem because of the way how the slippy map is rendered?<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
Well, I tried writing a nice mail informing you all about the problem. A<br clear="none">
week later, when nobody had even acknowledged the problem, I wrote the<br clear="none">
next mail. And that did exactly what it was supposed to do: It got you<br clear="none">
all off your butts and discuss this problem. Now to the next step:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
We can much better focus on getting the job done, than criticizing each<br clear="none">
other. If 150 people are fixing 100 multipolygons each, this is doable! We<br clear="none">
could do it with the help of OSM inspector, and eventually a MapRoulette<br clear="none">
task.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
Thank you. That is the first time somebody from the Canadian community<br clear="none">
is actually addressing the issue at hand and proposing a way forward.<br clear="none">
Lets see whether other people in the community see it the same way and<br clear="none">
you can come to a solution together.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I can help by providing Maproulette challenges and OSMI views and<br clear="none">
downloads with lists of affected relations etc. But I can't decide how<br clear="none">
you want to address this problem. The Canadian community has to do this.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv0769267942gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
p.s. Are you still wearing your t-shirt with Lake Manicouagan on it, based<br clear="none">
on OSM data? I hope it doesn't contain wrong tagging or imported data. ;)<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
Unfortunately the lake has faded a lot on that t-shirt so I don't wear<br clear="none">
it much any more. I should make a new one! :-)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Jochen<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
______________________________ _________________<br clear="none">
Talk-ca mailing list<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca">https://lists.openstreetmap.or g/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br clear="none">
</blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div class="yqt1022181419" id="yqtfd54746">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Talk-ca mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br clear="none"></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>