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<p>John, <br>
</p>
<p>You seem to be playing the long game with this data - it sounds
like you've been working with this a lot longer than I have, and
you've put in the time and effort to help make this
actually-quite-incredible dataset available to us. I don't want to
stop the import from happening - quite the opposite. I just want
to make sure that the time is taken to do this right. OSM deserves
that. Your (our) long awaited victory will be the sweeter for our
patience now. <br>
</p>
<p>There are several specific issues I see where the I's are not
crossed, nor the t's dotted. I've mentioned several already, so
I'll try to be brief (I really need to get back to working on my
dissertation).</p>
<p>1) There was extremely limited discussion on the imports mailing
list. The initial email did not make clear the scope of the
project. I read the email and did not think twice at it, thinking
it was entirely about Ottawa. The link in that email was actually
to the Ottawa import, and not this one, which seems to have been
only in draft at the time.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2018-November/005812.html">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2018-November/005812.html</a><br>
As such, this project has NOT been reviewed by the imports list,
which is a requirement for proceeding with the import.<br>
</p>
<p>2) There is no mention of this proposed import on the import
catalogue (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue</a>)<br>
which is required in the imports guidelines. I suspect many other
guidelines have not been followed. <br>
</p>
<p>3) The wiki page describing the import is not adequate to assess
the quality of the data or of the proposed import. See for
example:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Canada_Stats_Canada_Building_Outlines_Import/Plan#Risks">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Canada_Stats_Canada_Building_Outlines_Import/Plan#Risks</a><br>
The import guidelines call for a description of how conflation
will be handled. The fact that two of the major importers seem to
have a substantial disagreement about how to handle existing data
indicates this was not well discussed and I can see that it isn't
well documented. <br>
</p>
<p>4) The buildings need to be simplified, quite a bit actually.
Most buildings have multiple nodes representing straight lines.
This bloats the database and makes things harder to edit by hand
later. There are probably 2x more nodes than are needed to
represent the data accurately, making it harder for editors and
data consumers to work with down the road.This is a simple fix
that will save countless hours later.<br>
</p>
<p>... I could go on, but I think this is plenty sufficient to
justify pressing pause on all this. <br>
</p>
<p>Again, I don't in any way want to disrespect the work that has
gone into this effort already. We're all volunteers here and I
know how much time this all takes. However. importing all/most of
the buildings in Canada is a monstrously large task, which will
have to dance around a lot of people's toes. We should expect this
to take a really damn long time if we're going to do it right. We
need to have the patience to learn from experience, from critique,
and from the wisdom of the people who've learned from flawed
imports in the past and have devised guidelines and processes so
that we can have better experiences with this in the future. <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">Nate Wessel<br>
<span style="font-size:10px;color:#777">Jack of all trades, Master
of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning<br>
<a href="http://natewessel.com">NateWessel.com</a></span>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/19 2:24 PM, john whelan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJ-Ex1F-ryh3--1QpYw9zb7Wq14jxoHCSV_Q4Nb8QMBgu8duOA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">My
background is I'm a retired civil servant who has written and
overseen procurement documents and fairly large procurements.
Dotting the is and crossing the Ts are my speciality.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">There
are two parts to an import. The first part is the part played
by the import mailing group. They confine themselves to is
the license correct and do you have a reasonable plan. In
this case the license is one of the few that has been
confirmed by the Legal Working Group of OpenStreetMap and as
such no questions were raised about it on the import mailing
list. We have methodology that has been used before
successfully with the Ottawa building outline import. There
were major discussions both on talk-ca and the import mailing
group before that import took place and we took note of the
issues raised and addressed them. The licensing issue goes
back about eight years to when I was talking to Federal
Government Treasury Board and explaining their Open Data
license did not align with OSM. That is why their license is
now known as 2.0.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">The
second part is the local group makes the decision to import
they are the authority no one else.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Apparently
you were not part of the talk-ca when the discussions took
place which would have been the time and place to raise
concerns.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">When
the Ottawa import was done there were one or two places where
the existing buildings and the import overlapped. In the
instructions on the import there are instructions to cover
this. Specifically there is a validation step. I seem to
recall the error rate was of the order of 1% and I expect this
latest batch to be roughly the same.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">If you
can identify which municipalities data is of poor quality then
I'm sure we can remove these. For the most part these are
from the foundation plans recorded by the municipality using
professional surveying techniques.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would
you like to clarify exactly where I failed to dot the Is and
cross the Ts please.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Many
Thanks</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">John<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 at 13:37,
Nate Wessel <<a href="mailto:bike756@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">bike756@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi John, <br>
</p>
<p>As Steve has said, you seem to be the only one suggesting
that thousands of import committees might need to be
formed. Certainly I'm not suggesting that.</p>
<p>My understanding of OSM import procedure (and wiki-style
projects more generally) is that imports should operate in
an essentially consensual way where possible. The goal is
to build consent and bring people on board with a project
or a change by addressing their concerns in a meaningful
and respectful way. <br>
</p>
<p>I think that I have made some substantive and troubling
claims about the quality of the data being imported. I've
pointed out that this project has not followed the import
procedures that were produced by a community of mappers
larger than just those in Canada. <br>
</p>
<p>So to respond to your implication, I am in some sense the
one reviewing the project, just as I would welcome you to
find ways that my own contributions could be better. If
you want my credentials for reviewing your work, here they
are:</p>
<p>1) I am an active contributor to OSM in Toronto, where I
live (and elsewhere)<br>
</p>
<p>2) I am currently helping to lead a building import in
Hamilton County Ohio that has better addressed some of the
issues I see this import struggling with. I can help you
do the same.<br>
</p>
<p>3) I've been doing research in GIS for a long time now,
though I don't need that to tell you that the issues I've
described are hardly insurmountable technically or even
all that difficult to fix. It would take maybe one day's
hard work to get the technical side of this right. <br>
</p>
<p> I think Canadian OSMers will agree that we can take a
pause to get things right on such a massive import. If
they don't - if I'm shouted down or better, if my
critiques are adequately addressed, then I will leave you
to finish the project in peace. I might even lend a hand
if all goes well, as I sincerely hope it does :-)</p>
<p>Best,<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174moz-signature">Nate
Wessel<br>
<span style="font-size:10px;color:rgb(119,119,119)">Jack
of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in
Urban Planning<br>
<a href="http://natewessel.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NateWessel.com</a></span> <br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174moz-cite-prefix">On
1/18/19 1:11 PM, john whelan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">I
know of no other way to contact him but he made an
interesting comment that the project is on hold in the
wiki pending review.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would
he care to comment on who is supposed to be reviewing
the project?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">My
understanding is that the import was raised in talk-ca
before it commenced for comment and these were
generally favourable. I took that as the local
mappers to Canada had been consulted and they are the
"local mappers" authority in this case.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">I
understand he has concerns about local mappers making
decisions but in Canada we have been importing similar
data through CANVEC for some time. CANVEC data comes
from a number of sources including municipal data.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Is
he suggesting that each of the 3,700 municipalities in
Canada should form a group of local mappers who can
make individual decisions on whether their municipal
data should be imported and we should end up with
3,700 import plans?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thanks
John</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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moz-do-not-send="true">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br>
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