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<p>John, <br>
</p>
<p>I'm sorry to keep saying this, but I really do not think this is
an acceptable import approval process. <br>
</p>
<p>You're saying there was no wiki describing the plan when this
went to the imports mailing list - only a link to a similar plan
with related data. You did not follow the import guidelines and
you need to go back and read that page line by line and follow the
procedures that we have in place. <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines</a><br>
I'll go ahead and add a mention of this plan to the imports
catalogue to get us started. I'll also add some sections to the
wiki and try to leave some indication of where things can be
better documented. <br>
</p>
<p>You may think I'm quibbling over procedural details, but I think
this process is really important. If we were talking about
importing buildings in one neighborhood, I would look the other
way, but this is all of Canada. This is a huge, huge import and we
need to take the time to do things right, and especially to
document the process so people can get involved that aren't
already. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">Nate Wessel<br>
<span style="font-size:10px;color:#777">Jack of all trades, Master
of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning<br>
<a href="http://natewessel.com">NateWessel.com</a></span>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/19 3:48 PM, John Whelan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7d501491-9589-d605-5d13-d08b1f43e412@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div style="font-size: 
12pt;font-family: Verdana;">The import
mailing list was pointed to the correct page of the wiki. The
initial post was to say this is what we were thinking of and
there was a comment saying we needed to change the comment line.<br>
<br>
>There is no mention of this proposed import on the import
catalogue<br>
<br>
<br>
The import process was reviewed by the person who set up the
Ottawa import did we miss that step on the Ottawa import as
well? Neither was it raised as a concern on the import mailing
list. I think this is very minor and can be corrected.<br>
<br>
We learnt a fair bit on the Ottawa import and my expectation is
since we are using experienced mappers to do the import
conflation would be either handled by them or the building not
imported. We aren't using new mappers in a mapathon here and
with experienced mappers then I think you have to trust them.
The world isn't perfect. Think in terms of service level.<br>
<br>
>There are 2X more nodes than needed to represent the
building accurately.<br>
<br>
The problem with correcting this is you are introducing
approximations. This will vary according to the source and this
can be simplified or corrected once its in OSM. I think this is
a different issue of a mechanical edit that needs to be
considered separately.<br>
<br>
If we are concerned with database size then I suggest we change
the instructions to say put the source comment on the change set
rather than on the building outline.<br>
<br>
Cheerio John<br>
<br>
<br>
<span>Nate Wessel wrote on 2019-01-18 3:06 PM:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c88c176a-2b41-1eb7-6304-009047395226@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>John, <br>
</p>
<p>You seem to be playing the long game with this data - it
sounds like you've been working with this a lot longer than
I have, and you've put in the time and effort to help make
this actually-quite-incredible dataset available to us. I
don't want to stop the import from happening - quite the
opposite. I just want to make sure that the time is taken to
do this right. OSM deserves that. Your (our) long awaited
victory will be the sweeter for our patience now. <br>
</p>
<p>There are several specific issues I see where the I's are
not crossed, nor the t's dotted. I've mentioned several
already, so I'll try to be brief (I really need to get back
to working on my dissertation).</p>
<p>1) There was extremely limited discussion on the imports
mailing list. The initial email did not make clear the scope
of the project. I read the email and did not think twice at
it, thinking it was entirely about Ottawa. The link in that
email was actually to the Ottawa import, and not this one,
which seems to have been only in draft at the time.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2018-November/005812.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2018-November/005812.html</a><br>
As such, this project has NOT been reviewed by the imports
list, which is a requirement for proceeding with the import.<br>
</p>
<p>2) There is no mention of this proposed import on the
import catalogue (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue</a>)<br>
which is required in the imports guidelines. I suspect many
other guidelines have not been followed. <br>
</p>
<p>3) The wiki page describing the import is not adequate to
assess the quality of the data or of the proposed import.
See for example:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Canada_Stats_Canada_Building_Outlines_Import/Plan#Risks"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Canada_Stats_Canada_Building_Outlines_Import/Plan#Risks</a><br>
The import guidelines call for a description of how
conflation will be handled. The fact that two of the major
importers seem to have a substantial disagreement about how
to handle existing data indicates this was not well
discussed and I can see that it isn't well documented. <br>
</p>
<p>4) The buildings need to be simplified, quite a bit
actually. Most buildings have multiple nodes representing
straight lines. This bloats the database and makes things
harder to edit by hand later. There are probably 2x more
nodes than are needed to represent the data accurately,
making it harder for editors and data consumers to work with
down the road.This is a simple fix that will save countless
hours later.<br>
</p>
<p>... I could go on, but I think this is plenty sufficient to
justify pressing pause on all this. <br>
</p>
<p>Again, I don't in any way want to disrespect the work that
has gone into this effort already. We're all volunteers here
and I know how much time this all takes. However. importing
all/most of the buildings in Canada is a monstrously large
task, which will have to dance around a lot of people's
toes. We should expect this to take a really damn long time
if we're going to do it right. We need to have the patience
to learn from experience, from critique, and from the wisdom
of the people who've learned from flawed imports in the past
and have devised guidelines and processes so that we can
have better experiences with this in the future. <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">Nate Wessel<br>
<span style="font-size:10px;color:#777">Jack of all trades,
Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning<br>
<a href="http://natewessel.com" moz-do-not-send="true">NateWessel.com</a></span>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/19 2:24 PM, john whelan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJ-Ex1F-ryh3--1QpYw9zb7Wq14jxoHCSV_Q4Nb8QMBgu8duOA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">My
background is I'm a retired civil servant who has
written and overseen procurement documents and fairly
large procurements. Dotting the is and crossing the Ts
are my speciality.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">There
are two parts to an import. The first part is the part
played by the import mailing group. They confine
themselves to is the license correct and do you have a
reasonable plan. In this case the license is one of the
few that has been confirmed by the Legal Working Group
of OpenStreetMap and as such no questions were raised
about it on the import mailing list. We have
methodology that has been used before successfully with
the Ottawa building outline import. There were major
discussions both on talk-ca and the import mailing group
before that import took place and we took note of the
issues raised and addressed them. The licensing issue
goes back about eight years to when I was talking to
Federal Government Treasury Board and explaining their
Open Data license did not align with OSM. That is why
their license is now known as 2.0.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">The
second part is the local group makes the decision to
import they are the authority no one else.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Apparently
you were not part of the talk-ca when the discussions
took place which would have been the time and place to
raise concerns.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">When
the Ottawa import was done there were one or two places
where the existing buildings and the import overlapped.
In the instructions on the import there are instructions
to cover this. Specifically there is a validation step.
I seem to recall the error rate was of the order of 1%
and I expect this latest batch to be roughly the same.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">If
you can identify which municipalities data is of poor
quality then I'm sure we can remove these. For the most
part these are from the foundation plans recorded by the
municipality using professional surveying techniques.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would
you like to clarify exactly where I failed to dot the Is
and cross the Ts please.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Many
Thanks</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">John<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 at
13:37, Nate Wessel <<a
href="mailto:bike756@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">bike756@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi John, <br>
</p>
<p>As Steve has said, you seem to be the only one
suggesting that thousands of import committees might
need to be formed. Certainly I'm not suggesting
that.</p>
<p>My understanding of OSM import procedure (and
wiki-style projects more generally) is that imports
should operate in an essentially consensual way
where possible. The goal is to build consent and
bring people on board with a project or a change by
addressing their concerns in a meaningful and
respectful way. <br>
</p>
<p>I think that I have made some substantive and
troubling claims about the quality of the data being
imported. I've pointed out that this project has not
followed the import procedures that were produced by
a community of mappers larger than just those in
Canada. <br>
</p>
<p>So to respond to your implication, I am in some
sense the one reviewing the project, just as I would
welcome you to find ways that my own contributions
could be better. If you want my credentials for
reviewing your work, here they are:</p>
<p>1) I am an active contributor to OSM in Toronto,
where I live (and elsewhere)<br>
</p>
<p>2) I am currently helping to lead a building import
in Hamilton County Ohio that has better addressed
some of the issues I see this import struggling
with. I can help you do the same.<br>
</p>
<p>3) I've been doing research in GIS for a long time
now, though I don't need that to tell you that the
issues I've described are hardly insurmountable
technically or even all that difficult to fix. It
would take maybe one day's hard work to get the
technical side of this right. <br>
</p>
<p> I think Canadian OSMers will agree that we can
take a pause to get things right on such a massive
import. If they don't - if I'm shouted down or
better, if my critiques are adequately addressed,
then I will leave you to finish the project in
peace. I might even lend a hand if all goes well, as
I sincerely hope it does :-)</p>
<p>Best,<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174moz-signature">Nate
Wessel<br>
<span style="font-size:10px;color:rgb(119,119,119)">Jack
of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate
in Urban Planning<br>
<a href="http://natewessel.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NateWessel.com</a></span>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174moz-cite-prefix">On
1/18/19 1:11 PM, john whelan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">I
know of no other way to contact him but he made
an interesting comment that the project is on
hold in the wiki pending review.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would
he care to comment on who is supposed to be
reviewing the project?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">My
understanding is that the import was raised in
talk-ca before it commenced for comment and
these were generally favourable. I took that as
the local mappers to Canada had been consulted
and they are the "local mappers" authority in
this case.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">I
understand he has concerns about local mappers
making decisions but in Canada we have been
importing similar data through CANVEC for some
time. CANVEC data comes from a number of
sources including municipal data.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Is
he suggesting that each of the 3,700
municipalities in Canada should form a group of
local mappers who can make individual decisions
on whether their municipal data should be
imported and we should end up with 3,700 import
plans?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thanks
John</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
</div>
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class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="gmail-m_4868754124937657174moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
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