<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi All, <br></div><div>As a guy that works with postal codes and carrier routing, Justin is right, like the US, in Canada, Post codes are really just a sub-collection of address codes that don't necessarily correspond with geographic areas. They can be plotted on a map if you know the addresses, but they aren't polygons like everyone thinks. It get really complex when you have ranges within ranges (ie a street range, then a couple of condos within that range) <br></div><div>All I can say is keep pushing the gov't to open it up. It's a REAL pain to maintain! <br></div><div>Keith <br></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:54 AM <<a href="mailto:talk-ca-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-ca-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-ca mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Postcodes in Canada (Justin Tracey)<br>
2. Re: Postcodes in Canada (john whelan)<br>
3. Pertinence de lcn=yes pour le Québec (Alouette955)<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:23:32 -0400<br>
From: Justin Tracey <<a href="mailto:j3tracey@gmail.com" target="_blank">j3tracey@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>, Kevin Farrugia<br>
<<a href="mailto:kevinfarrugia@gmail.com" target="_blank">kevinfarrugia@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Postcodes in Canada<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:b4a44a04-d82e-71e4-3e80-b414afd71567@gmail.com" target="_blank">b4a44a04-d82e-71e4-3e80-b414afd71567@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br>
<br>
In the US, ZIP Codes (the US postal code equivalent) are frequently<br>
emphasized to not correspond to geographic locations, but sets of<br>
addresses. Of course they frequently cluster according to geography (and<br>
the prefixes are indeed assigned to states and regions within the<br>
state), and are often used as stand-ins, but you can't make assumptions<br>
about continuity or proximity for the addresses they correspond with.<br>
Even though I can't find it explicitly worded that way (i.e., "post<br>
codes are address sets, not locations"), it seems to be the same<br>
situation here. Given that, the most "correct" thing to do would be<br>
tagging postal codes in addresses, and not as distinct entities.<br>
<br>
The Canada Post website has a tool to lookup the postal code for a<br>
particular address, so if it were released, wouldn't the data they use<br>
to supply that information be good enough for this? It doesn't quite<br>
solve people trying to navigate "to" a particular postal code, but it<br>
seems like that's an ambiguous request anyway.<br>
<br>
- Justin<br>
<br>
On 2019-10-02 8:53 p.m., Kevin Farrugia wrote:<br>
> I don't want to rain on the postal code party, and maybe I'm a little<br>
> jaded from using the data, but I use the Postal Code Conversion File<br>
> (PCCF) from Statistics Canada (who get it from Canada Post) at work. <br>
> In general I would say that the postal code points are in mediocre shape.<br>
><br>
> Some things I've noticed about the data and postal codes in general:<br>
> * There is usually one postal code point per postal code, although<br>
> there are cases where there can be several points for a postal code. <br>
> For example, with some postal codes, if you were to make them<br>
> polygons, would generate multiple polygons that are intersected by<br>
> other postal codes.<br>
> * Postal codes, especially rural ones, pop in and out of existence and<br>
> so are a little harder to track and are less permanent than addresses.<br>
> * Postal codes will sometimes jump from one side of a road (even<br>
> municipality) between years as they try to improve accuracy.<br>
> I would check out the Limitations section if you'd like to see<br>
> more: <a href="https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/assets/cpc/uploads/files/marketing/2017-postal-code-conversion-file-reference-guide-en.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/assets/cpc/uploads/files/marketing/2017-postal-code-conversion-file-reference-guide-en.pdf</a><br>
><br>
> Forward Sortation Areas do exist as open data through Statistics<br>
> Canada - StatsCan generates these FSA polygons based on respondents of<br>
> the Census. There are two limitations to this dataset on which I<br>
> would advise against importing it into OSM:<br>
> 1) Since businesses do not respond to the Census, they generally do<br>
> not have FSAs for large industrial areas. These areas are covered by<br>
> the nearest FSA that they know about/can define, but this can also<br>
> cause some movements of boundaries from Census to Census.<br>
> 2) Because postal codes are created for the purpose of mail sortation<br>
> and delivery, the FSA boundaries StatsCan is able to create are not exact.<br>
> Here's the reference document if you're<br>
> interested: <a href="https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/92-179-g/92-179-g2016001-eng.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/92-179-g/92-179-g2016001-eng.htm</a><br>
><br>
> If at some point they did release it as open data, it might be decent<br>
> enough for the purposes of general geocoding in OSM, I just don't want<br>
> people to think it's as well maintained and reliable as some other<br>
> types of government data.<br>
><br>
> -Kevin (Kevo)<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 20:39, James <<a href="mailto:james2432@gmail.com" target="_blank">james2432@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:james2432@gmail.com" target="_blank">james2432@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> funny you should mention <a href="http://geocoder.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">geocoder.ca</a> <<a href="http://geocoder.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://geocoder.ca</a>> <br>
><br>
> The owner of that website was sued by Canada Post because he was<br>
> crowd sourcing postal codes. Just recently (2 ish years ago?) they<br>
> dropped the lawsuit because they knew they didnt have a case(He<br>
> came to the Ottawa meetups a couple of times)<br>
><br>
> On Wed., Oct. 2, 2019, 8:08 p.m. Jarek Piórkowski,<br>
> <<a href="mailto:jarek@piorkowski.ca" target="_blank">jarek@piorkowski.ca</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jarek@piorkowski.ca" target="_blank">jarek@piorkowski.ca</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Yeah, Canada Post currently considers postal codes their<br>
> commercial<br>
> data. Crowd-sourcing all or a substantial amount of full codes<br>
> seems<br>
> infeasible. Crowd-sourcing the forward sortation areas (the<br>
> first A1A)<br>
> seems difficult since verifiability is going to be a problem<br>
> especially around the edges of the areas.<br>
><br>
> The website OpenStreetMap.org returns results for some postal<br>
> codes<br>
> from a third-party database <a href="https://geocoder.ca/?terms=1" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://geocoder.ca/?terms=1</a> which<br>
> is not<br>
> ODbL-compatible either.<br>
><br>
> Partial mapping is causing some problems with tools like Nominatim<br>
> that attach the nearest tagged postcode to search results, often<br>
> resulting in improper postal codes for reverse address lookups,<br>
> however that is arguably a tooling problem and not an OSM<br>
> problem per<br>
> se.<br>
><br>
> This isn't going to be pretty until Canada Post is persuaded<br>
> to free<br>
> the data. Call your MP, everybody.<br>
><br>
> --Jarek<br>
><br>
> On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 17:38, john whelan<br>
> <<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com" target="_blank">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com" target="_blank">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > " The number one request on <a href="http://open.canada.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">open.canada.ca</a><br>
> <<a href="http://open.canada.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://open.canada.ca</a>> is to open the postal code database. <br>
> Feel free to add your vote.<br>
> <a href="https://open.canada.ca/en/suggested-datasets" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://open.canada.ca/en/suggested-datasets</a>"<br>
> ><br>
> > Cheerio John<br>
> ><br>
> > On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 13:32, john whelan<br>
> <<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com" target="_blank">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com" target="_blank">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> On the import mailing list there is a proposal to import<br>
> postcodes in the UK one of the reasons given was that many<br>
> like to input a postcode to get directions on smartphones<br>
> using things like OSMand.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I don't think an Open Data source with the correct<br>
> licensing is available in Canada but OSMand appears to be able<br>
> to use the postcode if it is entered in the map as part of the<br>
> address. Is there any Open Data that might be useful?<br>
> >><br>
> >> I don't know if it is possible but could something be used<br>
> to extract postcodes in the current map and from there perhaps<br>
> we could come up with a list of missing postcodes that need<br>
> one address with it in mapped?<br>
> >><br>
> >> As a minimum if you could add a few in you know from local<br>
> knowledge that might help fill in some gaps.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Thoughts<br>
> >><br>
> >> Thanks John<br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Talk-ca mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
> > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br>
><br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:54:44 -0400<br>
From: john whelan <<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com" target="_blank">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Justin Tracey <<a href="mailto:j3tracey@gmail.com" target="_blank">j3tracey@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <<a href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>>, Kevin Farrugia<br>
<<a href="mailto:kevinfarrugia@gmail.com" target="_blank">kevinfarrugia@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Postcodes in Canada<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAJ-Ex1F%2BubSdr5OQ3OOY1O6UMxyej5DWjCF4GOV1kQDnRA6PYA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAJ-Ex1F+ubSdr5OQ3OOY1O6UMxyej5DWjCF4GOV1kQDnRA6PYA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Canadian Postal Codes in urban areas are blocks of roughly 50 buildings<br>
which makes them extremely interesting to use for GIS studies. Average<br>
income etc.<br>
<br>
Both in the UK and Canada many people would rather type in a 6 character<br>
code than a street address with city when looking for directions to a<br>
location. In the UK postcodes where restricted to a street which meant<br>
when computer storage was expensive we used something called a prem code<br>
which was the building number followed by the postcode and generated the<br>
full address when required. Canadian postcodes can spam different streets<br>
especially in areas served by supermail boxes.<br>
<br>
If I use the example of my own address. The house was built in the City<br>
of Cumberland, but my postal address was Navan. Then Canada Post changed<br>
the postal address to Orleans which is interesting as Orleans does not<br>
exist as a municipality. Apparentyl there are one or two other places in<br>
Canada that Canada Post doesn't use the municipality name in the postal<br>
address. Currently it is in the City of Ottawa so some mail gets addressed<br>
Orleans and some Ottawa. I had an elderly aunt who always addressed my<br>
Christmas card to Navan and included the postcode until she died and each<br>
year the post office would attach a sticker saying the postal address was<br>
wrong. The post code remains the same over all the changes.<br>
<br>
So yes a postcode can change but from time to time they are more stable<br>
than the official postal address.<br>
<br>
As long as one address contains the postcode then Nominatim will find it<br>
which means it can be used for directions. You might be 30 buildings away<br>
but you are in the right general area so I think adding them as part of a<br>
street address is of value.<br>
<br>
Cheerio John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 11:24, Justin Tracey <<a href="mailto:j3tracey@gmail.com" target="_blank">j3tracey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> In the US, ZIP Codes (the US postal code equivalent) are frequently<br>
> emphasized to not correspond to geographic locations, but sets of<br>
> addresses. Of course they frequently cluster according to geography (and<br>
> the prefixes are indeed assigned to states and regions within the<br>
> state), and are often used as stand-ins, but you can't make assumptions<br>
> about continuity or proximity for the addresses they correspond with.<br>
> Even though I can't find it explicitly worded that way (i.e., "post<br>
> codes are address sets, not locations"), it seems to be the same<br>
> situation here. Given that, the most "correct" thing to do would be<br>
> tagging postal codes in addresses, and not as distinct entities.<br>
><br>
> The Canada Post website has a tool to lookup the postal code for a<br>
> particular address, so if it were released, wouldn't the data they use<br>
> to supply that information be good enough for this? It doesn't quite<br>
> solve people trying to navigate "to" a particular postal code, but it<br>
> seems like that's an ambiguous request anyway.<br>
><br>
> - Justin<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:53:22 -0400<br>
From: "Alouette955" <<a href="mailto:alouette955@gmail.com" target="_blank">alouette955@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Talk-CA OpenStreetMap" <<a href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Talk-ca] Pertinence de lcn=yes pour le Québec<br>
Message-ID: <23E127B36E5B4153AC238E746E2817E5@ToshibaCL><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Bonjour,<br>
<br>
J’extrais et isole ici le sujet “lcn=yes” et vous remarquerez le changement d’objet de la conversation.<br>
<br>
Le message original couvrant les autres sujets se trouve ici: <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2019-October/009443.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2019-October/009443.html</a><br>
<br>
Afin de bien mesurer l’ampleur j’ai sorti ces données concernant l’utilisation du lcn=yes dans les chemins (ways) et network=lcn dans les relations pour le Québec.<br>
<br>
Je crois avoir bien circonscrit les données au Québec dans overpass-turbo. Si quelqu’un veut vérifier ces chiffres pour corroborer ma démarche.<br>
<br>
J’ai trouvé:<br>
a.. 8106 chemins avec l’attribut lcn=yes présumé non pertinent puisque cet attribut serait réservé aux routes dans des relations. Ces attributs dans les chemins devraient alors être systématiquement enlevés. Une vérification régulière de la situation pourrait ensuite être faite pour éviter qu’il ne réapparaisse de la part de contributeurs non informés.<br>
<br>
b.. 90 relations avec network=lcn. Il resterait à vérifier la pertinence des ces 90 relations après avoir défini ce qui est une route lcn pour le Québec puis, sur une certaine période, créer les relations qui correspondraient aux routes absentes.<br>
<br>
Ceci touche le travail passé de dizaines sinon centaines de contributeurs qui ont cartographié les pistes cyclables et déployé l’usage de lcn=yes.<br>
<br>
Comment les joindre pour avoir leur avis et implanter une nouvelle façon de faire? <br>
<br>
Et comme le disait Pierre quels critères retenir pour définir ce qu’est une route lcn surtout avec la diversité des façons de faire dans les municipalités.<br>
<br>
En l’absence d’une structure provinciale pour avoir cette discussion est-ce qu’une discussion à 3 est satisfaisante.<br>
<br>
Claude<br>
<br>
P.S. L’avis des autres contributeurs aux réseaux cyclables du Québec présents sur cette liste serait apprécié.<br>
<br>
From: Pierre Béland <br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 4:09 PM<br>
To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <br>
Cc: Martin Chalifoux ; Alouette955 <br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Carte velo CyclOSM et Référence Route Verte<br>
<br>
<br>
Le wiki résume la réflexion à un certain moment donné et il faut être capable de le réviser si nécessaire. Tout comme pour le réseau routier, il y a place à l'interprétation lorsque nous hiérarchisons un réseau. Il faut lui donner du sens, et puis oui réduire le bruit avec tous les petits segments très locaux. <br>
<br>
<br>
1- L’utilisation de lcn=yes<br>
<br>
<br>
Je suis d'accord qu'il faut limiter l'utilisation des références réseau lcn au niveau local. On ne devrait oui ne retenir que ce qui correspond a l'ossature principale au niveau local. Mais quels critères retenir. Routes connectées à ossature principale ? Avec nom ou no ?.<br>
<br>
<br>
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