<div dir="auto">For example: Toronto has a bylaw if you are over 14 years old, you are not allowed to ride bike ever on sidewalk, if you are 14 and under and feel unsafe on road, you are allowed<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">At a certain point you need to use your judgement and know local laws</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri., Apr. 3, 2020, 11:37 a.m. Justin Tracey, <<a href="mailto:j3tracey@gmail.com">j3tracey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I was assuming cyclists can figure out a turn indication onto a sidewalk should instead be interpreted as onto the adjacent street; maybe that's more difficult than I'd assumed.</div><div><br></div><div>The Region of Waterloo allows bicycles on sidewalks in some situations, but I believe at least most of the constituent cities in it do not. In any case, it's certainly not provincial law for Ontario.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 3:16 PM Martin Chalifoux <<a href="mailto:martin.chalifoux@icloud.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">martin.chalifoux@icloud.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>When you follow a route with a riding app, you get turn prompts that are then incorrect because a sidewalk is selected rather than the street. The route is not just a line on a map, it becomes a set of turn-by-turn directions eventually.<div><br></div><div>What cities allow cycling on sidewalks anyway, seriously ? This sounds so inadequate. That it is tolerated is one thing, but outright legal or encouraged ? Makes no sense to me.<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Apr 3, 2020, at 11:11, Justin Tracey <<a href="mailto:j3tracey@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">j3tracey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><p>iD leaves all access tags undefined for sidewalks by default,
what you're seeing are the <i>implied</i> values (specifically,
highway=footway implies motor_vehicle=no, but does not make any
implication about bicycle=*; scroll down to the raw tags and
you'll see both are left undefined). The reason sidewalks cannot
imply bicycle=no is that's not true in all legal jurisdictions.
The question is then whether routing engines should take legal
jurisdiction into account when deciding the default value for
bicycle=*, the way they do for maxspeed=*. The problem is that
maxspeed=* has defaults on a uniform provincial granularity, but
bicycle=* has an arbitrary granularity (any particular sidewalk
could be subject to federal, provincial, regional, or city laws).</p><p>Personally, my approach has been noting when routing engines are
taking advantage of sidewalks they shouldn't be able to, and
tagging those. Most sidewalks run parallel to roads, and I assume
cyclists/data consumers know the respective rules they should be
following, even if the routing engine doesn't.</p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 2:51 PM Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca <<a href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Maybe the issue is that in ID and I assume that is the Canadian default value, the bicycle access tag is left undefined. Why isn’t that tag defaulted to no as it is for cars ? Then an explicit yes tag can be added only to the odd place where cycling on a sidewalk is allowed. We are talking routing engines here, not the kid that plays on the street.<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Apr 3, 2020, at 10:46, Nate Wessel <<a href="mailto:bike756@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bike756@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div>
<div><p>Which routing engines are causing problems exactly? Routing a
bicycle on a sidewalk may be appropriate/reasonable in some cases
and over short distances where one could be instructed to dismount
and walk. I'd be interested to see some of the problematic routes
that are being suggested to see if there isn't a more elegant way
of resolving this. <br>
</p><p>I personally only use explicit access tags where there is clear
signage indicating some type of special access restriction.
Otherwise the default should be assumed. Routing engines <i>should</i>
be able to accommodate region differences in default values
without needing to manually tag millions of ways. Whether they can
or do allow that is a problem for the people developing the
routing engines. <br>
</p>
<div><p> Nate Wessel<small>, PhD<br>
Planner, Cartographer, Transport Nerd<br>
<a href="https://www.natewessel.com/" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">NateWessel.com</a></small>
</p>
</div>
<div>On 2020-04-03 10:39 a.m., John Whelan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
I'd recommend bicycle=no and I live in Ottawa. In Ottawa
footpaths that connect in general are bicycle=yes as they come
under municipal regulation but a sidewalk on a highway comes under
provincial legislation which bans bicycles on sidewalks. Sparks
street is fun I think you are not permitted to ride your bicycle
but I'm unsure if this is provincial, municipal or it might even
be NCC which is federal of course.<br>
<br>
In the UK they are banned by law but in certain cities the Chief
Constable has stated the law will not be enforced within the
police force boundaries as a letter of interpretation. It might
be nice for Ottawa to do the same sometime but there again we have
City of Ottawa police, OPP, RCMP and of course the PPS.<br>
<br>
Cheerio John<br>
<br>
<span>James wrote on 2020-04-03 10:25 AM:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">I don't think it's more tagging for the renderer
as much as it's being more specific(more data) to specify a
abstract view: without knowledge of
Canadian/Provincial/Municipal laws about biking on sidewalks.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I think Montreal and Gatineau are more
enforced as Ottawa it is illegal to bike on the sidewalk,
but people are still doing it, but that's beside the point.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri., Apr. 3, 2020, 10:18
a.m. Pierre-Léo Bourbonnais via Talk-ca, <<a href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to start a discussion on how we should
deal with sidewalks tagged separately, like it is is
done in downtown Ottawa and like we are starting to do
in the Montreal region.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The issue is that by default highway=footway with or
without footway=sidewalk should have an implicit
bicycle=no by default according to this page: <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access_restrictions" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access_restrictions</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, some osm users told me I should tag them
with bicycle=no everywhere because routing engines use
sidewalks for bicycle routing which is illegal in most
part of Canada.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What are your thoughts on this ? Should we adapt to
routing engines or should routing engines fix the issue
themselves?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
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