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</head><body text="#000000">I'm fine without the operator tag.<br>
<br>
Cheerio John<br>
<br>
<span>Jarek Piórkowski wrote on 9/14/2021 8:27 PM:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CACV3h2=_XwKbuXUWrXh+MjxF-AvQrKrJ-yHpmzoXPWT5Sf9TMg@mail.gmail.com">
<pre wrap="">I did suggest not putting the operator name at all, which is a simple
solution here. We don't really need the operator, and if we want to be
future-safe to deal with other possible operators of community
mailboxes, use operator:wikidata=* which doesn't run into the
languages problem. But I'm fine with your suggested solution if
mailing list desires an operator name to be tagged.
--Jarek
On Tue, 14 Sept 2021 at 19:38, Andrew Lester <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a-lester@shaw.ca"><a-lester@shaw.ca></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">
We could spend a ton of time trying to come up with a complex decision tree for determining which language to use as the default for any given point in Canada, but I think I'll just declare that as being beyond the scope of this current proposal. I was hoping we could come up with a relatively simple definition that I could put in the wiki, but I don't think we'll be able to do that. For now, I'll be satisfied if we can come to a determination on the ones that I raised in this discussion. How about this:
-The mailboxes in Quebec (170 of them, almost all in Quebec City) get operator=Postes Canada
-The two mailboxes in New Brunswick get operator=Canada Post (no real reason for choosing English, but we have to pick something)
-The rest of them across Canada (699, none in Nunavut) get operator=Canada Post
If anyone has any objections to this plan, I'd prefer that you propose an alternate solution rather than simply object, because that wouldn't get us anywhere.
Andrew
________________________________
From: "Iain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:iain@monkeyface.ca"><iain@monkeyface.ca></a>
To: "john whelan" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com"><jwhelan0112@gmail.com></a>
Cc: "a-lester" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a-lester@shaw.ca"><a-lester@shaw.ca></a>, "Jherome Miguel" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jheromemiguel@gmail.com"><jheromemiguel@gmail.com></a>, "talk-ca" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org"><talk-ca@openstreetmap.org></a>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 6:32:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Community mailboxes
I agree with Andrew and how he suggests keeping the operator tag and predominant language.
I would like to point out in Nunavut there is the protected language act. Similar to other language acts Inuit languages must be part of all public communication.
Iain
On Sep 10, 2021, at 17:42, john whelan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com"><jwhelan0112@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Currently rendering systems such as osmand will use either a French value or an English value based on preferences. In Ottawa Sparks Street comes up in English and rue Sparks in French. The west end of Ottawa has a higher percentage of English speakers and in general there are more French speakers in the East. I think 99% of Francophones in Ottawa can speak English. There are towns is Quebec that have a majority of English speakers. One Quebec demographic language problem is that it is thought that French will no longer be the language used in the home by more than 50% of the population in X years time. Do we change all the French to English when that happens? I don't like the idea of using a name based on what is thought to be the local language. For example what would be your definition of a local area?
Bilingualism is a minefield.
Cheerio John
On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 18:13, Andrew Lester <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a-lester@shaw.ca"><a-lester@shaw.ca></a> wrote:
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">
I agree that we should probably keep the operator tag. I think it would be good to come up with a solution that we can add to the Canadian Tagging Guidelines page so future mappers can keep things consistent. Otherwise, we'll likely end up with a mix of operator values across the country, and possibly get some dual-values again. I like the idea of setting operator based on the predominant language of the area. Do you think that would be sufficient guidance? I'm thinking something along the lines of "Set the operator tag to either "Canada Post" or "Postes Canada" based on the predominant language of the area"?
At least for now, the mailboxes in question would be fairly easy to split between English-speaking and French-speaking areas. The ones in Quebec would get operator=Postes Canada, whereas most of the rest would get operator=Canada Post. There are only two in New Brunswick: one just west of Fredericton (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6691229693">http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6691229693</a>) and one outside of Saint John (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4117220884">http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4117220884</a>). I admit I'm not too familiar with the intricacies of bilingualism in New Brunswick. Would these two areas be considered English-speaking? The roads that these mailboxes are on have English names. Or is New Brunswick truly bilingual and we realistically can't choose one or the other? I know some places like Brussels use dual-value names, so maybe we'd just have to use operator=Canada Post/Postes Canada in New Brunswick?
Andrew
________________________________
From: "Jherome Miguel" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jheromemiguel@gmail.com"><jheromemiguel@gmail.com></a>
To: "talk-ca" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org"><talk-ca@openstreetmap.org></a>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 12:25:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Community mailboxes
I would either stick to option 2 or 3, but leaning to option 2. We can assume all community mailboxes are under Canada Post/Postes Canada even if FedEx, Purolator or UPS doesn’t have something like that, but I would still like to keep the operator tag for completeness.
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:02 AM <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-ca-request@openstreetmap.org"><talk-ca-request@openstreetmap.org></a> wrote:
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">
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Today's Topics:
1. Community mailboxes (Andrew Lester)
2. Re: Community mailboxes (Jarek Pi?rkowski)
3. Re: Community mailboxes (Jarek Pi?rkowski)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:52:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: Andrew Lester <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a-lester@shaw.ca"><a-lester@shaw.ca></a>
To: talk-ca <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org"><talk-ca@openstreetmap.org></a>
Subject: [Talk-ca] Community mailboxes
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:686760212.400042543.1631224353185.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca"><686760212.400042543.1631224353185.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca></a>
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Hi all,
Back in March, Dartmouthmapmaker made a mechanical edit (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/100559754">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/100559754</a>) where they changed all community mailboxes in Canada tagged with type=cmb and:
-Gave them the name "Canada Post Community Mailbox"
-Added the operator tag with the value "Canada Post/ Poste Canada"
-Changed type=cmb to post_box:type=community
I made a comment on that changeset at the time expressing my disapproval of the changes, but didn't pursue it any further. However, I think it's time we deal with the situation.
Here are the problems I see with the change and how I propose that they be resolved:
-Name: These mailboxes don't have names in reality. If any particular mailbox does indeed have a name (which I find unlikely), I highly doubt it's "Canada Post Community Mailbox". This artificial label should be removed from any mailboxes.
-Operator: The operator value currently contains both of the bilingual versions of "Canada Post". I believe this should be split out into operator:en=Canada Post and operator:fr=Poste Canada
-Type: While type=cmb was the documented recommendation for these for many years, I see that the Canadian tagging guidelines (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Community_mailboxes">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Community_mailboxes</a>) have since been updated to instead recommend post_box:type=community. Considering this change to the guidelines, I would support retaining this part of the original changeset.
In summary, what I'm proposing is a mechanical edit where:
-An Overpass search is performed for "amenity=post_box and name="Canada Post Community Mailbox" in Canada"
-The name tag is removed
-The operator tag is removed (or should this contain "Canada Post"?)
-The tag operator:en is set to "Canada Post"
-The tag operator:fr is set to "Poste Canada"
-The tag post_box:type is retained, or set to post_box:type=community if not present
The original changeset modified 8487 nodes, but an Overpass search now finds only 871 that still have that name, so it seems like many contributors have the same opinion as me and have already made some changes in their areas.
What are your thoughts on the proposed actions? If there isn't any opposition in the next couple of weeks, I plan to go ahead and make these changes.
Andrew Lester
Victoria, BC
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