<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body>
<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
I may be too naive but putting barriers wherever they are placed by authorities should be expected to do the job (in a good routing
<span id="ms-outlook-android-cursor"></span>app.). Does it? If it does, local mappers could maintain barrier locations until everything is resolved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="ms-outlook-mobile-signature">Sent from Galaxy S7</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Pierre Béland via Talk-ca <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 17, 2021 5:24:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Talk-ca] Flood Mapping in BC</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="x_ydp4e425537yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:13px">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Dans le cas de chantiers majeurs, la question du verre à moitié plein, oui quelle décision appliquer.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>J'entends aux infos que le gouvernement de Colombie-Britannique veut réagir rapidement et assurer que des voies temporaires soient accessibles.Il serait possible de montrer l'évolution de l'accès routier à condition que la communauté locale (qui peut observr
de visu et suivre les infos locales) assure le suivi. A voir si quelqu'un se propose. Il faudrait par exemple mettre a jour constamment les relations les plus importantes dont l'autoroute vers la vallée du Fraser et assurer que les relations indiquent toujours
un chemin continu (non interrompu par des travaux). Les différents outils tels OSMAnd pourraient avoir un certain retard à publier mais par contre toujours offrir un trajet continu.
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">À titre d'exemple, dans la région de Montréal <span>deux projets routiers majeurs
</span>on été suivis au cours des dernières années par les contriubuteurs de la région. Ces deux projets étaient quelque peu différents parce que dans ce cas il s'agissait de représenter le déplacement des anciennes vers les voies temporaires puis les nouvelles
voies permanentes. Les nouveaux segments étaient ajoutés, les anciens indiqués comme désuets et les relations routières étaient constamment mises à jour pour réfléter les nouveau segments à utiliser.</div>
<div class="x_ydp4e425537signature"><span style="font-style:italic; color:rgb(0,0,191); font-weight:bold"> <br>
<font face="garamond, new york, times, serif" style="background-color:inherit">Pierre
</font><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="x_ydp2e56c5c0yahoo_quoted_7822997045" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; color:#26282a">
<div>Le mercredi 17 novembre 2021, 16 h 55 min 59 s UTC−5, Nate Wessel <bike756@gmail.com> a écrit :
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<div>
<p>So, the main critique in the phrase "tagging for the router/renderer" as I understand it is that it implies that one is modifying their reasonable interpretation/understanding of reality to accommodate a particular, limited technology or application. In
this case, those routers really <i>should</i> be able to update quickly when the data changes, but maybe some of them don't and that is what it is, but it's definitely not the ideal scenario given that data often changes.<br clear="none">
</p>
<p>Tons of things in the OSM database change all the time. I just mapped out dozens of new weed dispensaries in Toronto because I think that's an interesting trend. But if even half of them are still open in two years I'll be pretty surprised.
<br clear="none">
</p>
<p>In the end, everything changes, even the mountains. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust, etc. The only real question is how fast is too fast. I'd say something that exists for a month may well be worth mapping. Other people may draw that line somewhere else.
Keep in mind that OSM, because it maintains history, is also an historical database. Most of us don't use it for that, but I think the applications there are very very interesting, especially as OSM transitions from adding new data (by and large) to maintaining
and updating.</p>
<p>Definitely not zero value. <br clear="none">
</p>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-signature">
<p>Nate Wessel<br clear="none">
<small>Cartographer, Planner, Transport Nerd<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.natewessel.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" style="text-decoration-line:none; text-decoration-style:solid; text-decoration-color:currentcolor">NateWessel.com
</a></small></p>
</div>
<div id="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048yqt29222" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048yqt5819646461">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-11-17 4:37 p.m., Martin Chalifoux wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div id="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048yqt99432" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048yqt5819646461">
<div>Let me ask then, if you are not tagging construction work for the router, what are you doing it for ? It makes no sense doing it. Somebody must show how it can be usefu to anybodyl. I repeat myself, but the core map database is not the place to put time-changing
data like that. It belongs elsewhere.
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Google Maps and Apple Maps are years ahead in this area. But they also have a huge infrastructure supporting it, including live traffic data fed back from all the phones going on the road. They have lots of employees
taking info from transport authorities and feeding it to their apps. They don’t do it by hand with a handful of people. If OSM want to get into that ball game, it needs a proper plan. Tagging roads and messing with the core map database is not a plan. I see
it has having zero value. Partners using the OSM dataset I am sure see it the same way.</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Cheers.<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<div><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<blockquote type="cite" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">On Nov 17, 2021, at 16:28, Nate Wessel <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:bike756@gmail.com" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bike756@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048Apple-interchange-newline" clear="none">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">That's a very pragmatic approach, and defensible for sure. But it also sounds to me like a case of
<a shape="rect" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
"tagging for the renderer</a>", or for the router in this case. <br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</p>
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">One can also make a good case that OSM should reflect
<a shape="rect" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Map_what.27s_on_the_ground" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
reality on the ground</a>, which is the direction I lean in personally. Our data can be better and more up to date than some of the big map services can even handle. How neat is that?
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</p>
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">But this is probably one of those glass half-full/half-empty debates in a lot of ways. Both sides have good arguments.
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</p>
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Cheers,<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</p>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-signature">
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Nate Wessel<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<small class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Cartographer, Planner, Transport Nerd<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.natewessel.com/" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" style="text-decoration-line:none; text-decoration-style:solid; text-decoration-color:currentcolor">NateWessel.com
</a></small></p>
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-11-17 3:51 p.m., Martin Chalifoux wrote:<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>Reasonable, and don’t forget routing services do not use the OSM data LIVE, they use a copy. Even services such as OpenRouteServices do not rebuilt their routing tree every day. Their visual map may update, but the underlying routing engine, which takes
a lot of computing to update, is not updated very often. So even if the person doing the edit is diligent to undo it when the construction is finished, these services will not update quickly. That is why I say you are adding inaccuracies later. When the road
re-open, people will still be diverted from using it. That caused more problems than it solves. Given the nature of OSM I see it as pointless to add temporary edits like this. It really does no good at all.
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Cheers. <br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<blockquote type="cite" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">On Nov 17, 2021, at 15:33, Nate Wessel <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:bike756@gmail.com" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bike756@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048Apple-interchange-newline" clear="none">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">I agree with regard to very short term closures e.g. for parades, marathons, but I imagine we're talking here about closures that could have impacts for weeks to months, and would have dramatic implications for routing
especially. IMO it's on any service providers to update their data in a timely way, including data from OSM.
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</p>
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">My main criteria, personally, for including these sorts of changes in OSM is whether the person making the edit that closes a road (etc) because of damage, construction, is also planning to make a timely edit to reopen
that road when the time comes. Better to leave it as is if there isn't anyone watching for the reopening. But if someone wants to watch the situation closely and make the map mirror reality, I say go for it.<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</p>
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Cheers,<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</p>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-signature">
<p class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Nate Wessel<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<small class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Cartographer, Planner, Transport Nerd<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.natewessel.com/" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" style="text-decoration-line:none; text-decoration-style:solid; text-decoration-color:currentcolor">NateWessel.com
</a></small></p>
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-11-17 2:26 p.m., Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca wrote:<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>OSM is not designed to map elements that change in time such is traffic, construction. There is no way to set start and end dates to element for example. It is a database that gets
<b class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">duplicated</b> in tons of services be it online services that render OSM data, or apps on smartphones, etc. These services take a snapshot and then may not update again for months, a year, who knows. When people put elements
that expire quickly, such as maintenance construction (OSM construction tags exists but are designed for new roads being built, not repairs), then there temporary elements are expires and removed, they remain in all the other services. It makes the OSM data
unreliable. You add a bit of short time accuracy but even more long time inaccuracy. Anyhow I presonnaly advocate agains adding broken roads to the OSM database. Road closures are the responsibility of the rendering engines and they must get that info from
other sources than the map database and then add it as a layer. OSM is the map layer, then traffic, closures, weather, etc. are better treated as completely independant layers.
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">My take anyway, Martin.</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048"><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<blockquote type="cite" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">On Nov 17, 2021, at 13:55, Joel <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:joel@joelmcfaul.ca" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">joel@joelmcfaul.ca</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048Apple-interchange-newline" clear="none">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048">Hi everyone,<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
Numerous major highways have been washed out or blocked due to recent flooding in BC. Does this community have any thoughts about reflecting these changes in OSM? I assume most of these closures will be temporary, however are significant and may last for months.<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
Thank you,<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
Joel</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
Talk-ca mailing list<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-txt-link-freetext" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<fieldset class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Talk-ca mailing list
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-txt-link-abbreviated" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a shape="rect" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-txt-link-freetext" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a>
</pre>
_______________________________________________<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
Talk-ca mailing list<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca" class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048moz-txt-link-freetext" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
<br class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yiv7733971048" clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="x_ydp2e56c5c0yqt5819646461" id="x_ydp2e56c5c0yqt17651">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
Talk-ca mailing list<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>