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<p>So, the main critique in the phrase "tagging for the
router/renderer" as I understand it is that it implies that one is
modifying their reasonable interpretation/understanding of reality
to accommodate a particular, limited technology or application. In
this case, those routers really <i>should</i> be able to update
quickly when the data changes, but maybe some of them don't and
that is what it is, but it's definitely not the ideal scenario
given that data often changes.<br>
</p>
<p> Tons of things in the OSM database change all the time. I just
mapped out dozens of new weed dispensaries in Toronto because I
think that's an interesting trend. But if even half of them are
still open in two years I'll be pretty surprised. <br>
</p>
<p>In the end, everything changes, even the mountains. Ashes to
ashes and dust to dust, etc. The only real question is how fast is
too fast. I'd say something that exists for a month may well be
worth mapping. Other people may draw that line somewhere else.
Keep in mind that OSM, because it maintains history, is also an
historical database. Most of us don't use it for that, but I think
the applications there are very very interesting, especially as
OSM transitions from adding new data (by and large) to maintaining
and updating.</p>
<p>Definitely not zero value. <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">
<p> Nate Wessel<br>
<small> Cartographer, Planner, Transport Nerd<br>
<a href="https://www.natewessel.com"
style="text-decoration:none;"> NateWessel.com </a> </small>
</p>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-11-17 4:37 p.m., Martin
Chalifoux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:66B176C6-2E53-48DC-84E9-FC9EDB9AD24E@icloud.com">
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Let me ask then, if you are not tagging construction work for the
router, what are you doing it for ? It makes no sense doing it.
Somebody must show how it can be usefu to anybodyl. I repeat
myself, but the core map database is not the place to put
time-changing data like that. It belongs elsewhere.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Google Maps and Apple Maps are years ahead in this
area. But they also have a huge infrastructure supporting it,
including live traffic data fed back from all the phones going
on the road. They have lots of employees taking info from
transport authorities and feeding it to their apps. They don’t
do it by hand with a handful of people. If OSM want to get into
that ball game, it needs a proper plan. Tagging roads and
messing with the core map database is not a plan. I see it has
having zero value. Partners using the OSM dataset I am sure see
it the same way.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers.<br class="">
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 17, 2021, at 16:28, Nate Wessel <<a
href="mailto:bike756@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">bike756@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">That's a very pragmatic approach, and
defensible for sure. But it also sounds to me like a
case of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer"
class="">"tagging for the renderer</a>", or for
the router in this case. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">One can also make a good case that OSM
should reflect <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Map_what.27s_on_the_ground"
class="">reality on the ground</a>, which is the
direction I lean in personally. Our data can be
better and more up to date than some of the big map
services can even handle. How neat is that? <br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">But this is probably one of those glass
half-full/half-empty debates in a lot of ways. Both
sides have good arguments. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Cheers,<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">
<p class=""> Nate Wessel<br class="">
<small class=""> Cartographer, Planner, Transport
Nerd<br class="">
<a href="https://www.natewessel.com/"
style="text-decoration:none;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true"> NateWessel.com </a> </small>
</p>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-11-17 3:51 p.m.,
Martin Chalifoux wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AF531073-BB56-4D62-B49C-EF16A75B9E59@icloud.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
Reasonable, and don’t forget routing services do not
use the OSM data LIVE, they use a copy. Even
services such as OpenRouteServices do not rebuilt
their routing tree every day. Their visual map may
update, but the underlying routing engine, which
takes a lot of computing to update, is not updated
very often. So even if the person doing the edit is
diligent to undo it when the construction is
finished, these services will not update quickly.
That is why I say you are adding inaccuracies later.
When the road re-open, people will still be diverted
from using it. That caused more problems than it
solves. Given the nature of OSM I see it as
pointless to add temporary edits like this. It
really does no good at all.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers. <br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 17, 2021, at 15:33, Nate
Wessel <<a
href="mailto:bike756@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">bike756@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">I agree with regard to very
short term closures e.g. for parades,
marathons, but I imagine we're talking
here about closures that could have
impacts for weeks to months, and would
have dramatic implications for routing
especially. IMO it's on any service
providers to update their data in a
timely way, including data from OSM. <br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">My main criteria, personally,
for including these sorts of changes in
OSM is whether the person making the
edit that closes a road (etc) because of
damage, construction, is also planning
to make a timely edit to reopen that
road when the time comes. Better to
leave it as is if there isn't anyone
watching for the reopening. But if
someone wants to watch the situation
closely and make the map mirror reality,
I say go for it.<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Cheers,<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">
<p class=""> Nate Wessel<br class="">
<small class=""> Cartographer,
Planner, Transport Nerd<br class="">
<a
href="https://www.natewessel.com/"
style="text-decoration:none;"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
NateWessel.com </a> </small> </p>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-11-17
2:26 p.m., Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C05FEA35-973B-4AEB-83D1-BAFB4EE52E64@icloud.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
class="">
OSM is not designed to map elements that
change in time such is traffic,
construction. There is no way to set
start and end dates to element for
example. It is a database that gets <b
class="">duplicated</b> in tons of
services be it online services that
render OSM data, or apps on smartphones,
etc. These services take a snapshot and
then may not update again for months, a
year, who knows. When people put
elements that expire quickly, such as
maintenance construction (OSM
construction tags exists but are
designed for new roads being built, not
repairs), then there temporary elements
are expires and removed, they remain in
all the other services. It makes the OSM
data unreliable. You add a bit of short
time accuracy but even more long time
inaccuracy. Anyhow I presonnaly
advocate agains adding broken roads to
the OSM database. Road closures are the
responsibility of the rendering engines
and they must get that info from other
sources than the map database and then
add it as a layer. OSM is the map layer,
then traffic, closures, weather, etc.
are better treated as completely
independant layers.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My take anyway, Martin.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 17, 2021, at
13:55, Joel <<a
href="mailto:joel@joelmcfaul.ca"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">joel@joelmcfaul.ca</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Hi everyone,<br
class="">
<br class="">
Numerous major highways have
been washed out or blocked due
to recent flooding in BC. Does
this community have any
thoughts about reflecting
these changes in OSM? I assume
most of these closures will be
temporary, however are
significant and may last for
months.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thank you,<br class="">
Joel</div>
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