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<p class="MsoNormal">Iain,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very well said! Thanks for the knowledge transfer.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><img width="467" height="156" style="width:4.8645in;height:1.625in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D90ECC.A176E060"><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> iain@monkeyface.ca <iain@monkeyface.ca> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 13, 2022 12:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian M. Sperlongano <zelonewolf@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Talk-ca] What do I poutine the name tag of a road with a suffix?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#9C6500">CAUTION:</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments
unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Brian, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think I will weigh in on this conversation.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think this conversation has been going on for at least 122 years…… From what I can actually find.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">To clear up the “sources” instead of internet lore they come from the Alberta survey Act. The ATS (has already been mentioned here) and the Hudson Bay reserve plan (still in use today) and the Dominion Land Survey. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">After the start of this thread I did some digging around as to the “why” to see what I could come up with. As we seem to just use this and it is legislated. And I think for this thread it comes down to when a cardinal direction is not a
cardinal direction but a name. This seems to have come from a disagreement between CP rail and Saskatchewan and Alberta surveyors. And the legislation was changed from a cardinal Northwest to NW and should never be expanded reason being is the pattern of NW-SW-NW-SW
that would happen every quarter mile if you walked Alberta North to South. So the cardinal system was abandoned and you just write NW. This became the legal land description. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The legislation we have in Alberta is the same as Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Parts of BC also follow this but I didn’t look to closely into BC. There are exceptions to these rules that are also defined in the Survey Act as well as the ATS.
Machine Hat was already mentioned as an odd ball and they are right it is excluded. So is Fort MacMurray. Pierre mention that Quebec does not abbreviate roads. And neither does the French community of Beaumont in Alberta. I believe all road signs are in French
there. This also applies to any federal land so Indian reserves, the the air ranges are out as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That said most things are very well defined in legislation. But there are some grey areas. Deerfoot Trail for example. This was a federal road at one point. Signs are simply north and south. I would question if Deerfoot should have Deerfoot
SE in the name at all. I would also as about 16 ave where it becomes the transcanada. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If anyone wants to see the physical remains of this dispute they can look at 16 avenue SW and 7 street SW. 16 ave just disappears from where CP rail put it and the Alberta Surveyors corrected it. Alberta also doesn’t use UTM coordinate
system…. We made our own because…. Well because we have to be difficult. It is the 3TM and it is used everywhere outside of Edmonton and Calgary. Also we changed our map projections between forested areas and grasslands <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So when NW is just a place holder and not a direction is that this comes down to for a lot of people in the prairies. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Iain<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Dec 12, 2022, at 9:20 PM, Brian M. Sperlongano <<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Again "someone told me something offhand" is not useful or helpful for public discussion.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If the Calgary mapping community has a convention to map streets exactly according to a specific government database or to satisfy a specific data consumer, then I await their description of specifically what the standards are so that mappers
can map freely to documented standards without being harassed.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 11:17 PM Michael Stark <<a href="mailto:michael60634@gmail.com">michael60634@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hey Brian, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I believe you accidentally replied to me specifically instead of clicking "reply all".<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"Anecdotal stories which can't be publicly examined are not helpful."<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't know the name of the software in question. All I know is that the person that uses this software contacted me after my changes broke it. I don't know if he wants to be identified here as he has told me that he has had past issues
with mailing list, so I have not mentioned his name.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 9:54 PM Michael Stark <<a href="mailto:michael60634@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael60634@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hey Brian, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'll jump in to answer your questions.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The names are abbreviated in Calgary (and most other places in Alberta) because that's how they are officially written. It's not something local mappers decided.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't have a specific example, but the mapper I was talking to whose software broke works in the oil and gas industry. I assume the software broke because the OSM names didn't match the official names from the provincial or local government.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I hope these answers are helpful.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Warm regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 9:39 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" target="_blank">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:17 PM Hoser AB <<a href="mailto:hoserab1@gmail.com" target="_blank">hoserab1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Well Brian, the answer to question 1 is pretty straight forward: I don't really know whether it's more or less ignored or accepted in Washington, District of Columbia (abbreviations are a no-no, don'tcha know? ;) ). And I don't really care
either.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm sorry, but this does not answer my question. I'll state it again:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Is the decision to abbreviate names in Calgary based on something different about Calgary from the rest of the world, or is it just a convention that local mappers have chosen based on preference? Please forgive me for asking this directly,
as it's the crux of the discussion.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">With respect to question 2, there are users of OSM data for whom making a seemingly subtle change from e.g. "37 Street SW" to "Thirty-seventh Street Southwest" is going to break the functionality of whatever it is they're using it for<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Can you give a specific example of software that will break by following the global convention to abbreviate names, or is this just a hypothetical? How does that software deal with the rest of the world using expanded (non-abbreviated)
names?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-ca mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.openstreetmap.org%2Flistinfo%2Ftalk-ca&data=05%7C01%7Ceric.geiler%40abcourier.com%7Ce336178692c1498cd92708dadcc9c271%7C57d9979d78e542e38d921484c9e04322%7C0%7C0%7C638065056515765212%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Wj2R0%2FgJ249b2fuRaDp7Tm8rklM5uHFVdEOKx%2BL9Bi0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-ca mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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