Hi Frederik,<div><br></div><div>The feedback from you and Jochen was great - we discussed it in the Local chapters group, but since around February we have not been able to meet as a group to discuss further.</div><div><br>
</div><div>I see the point, as <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; ">Rotbarsch said</span></div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(80, 0, 80); ">"If you want to become german section of OSMF you have to sign, that when you<br>
decide to go different ways later again you have to give all URLs, all<br>mailinglists and everything you build up to OSMF."</span></div><div><br></div><div>I can also understand why having to hand back <a href="http://openstreetmap.de">openstreetmap.de</a> to the OSM-F is not favorable. A clear direction for the local chapters working group is to figure out ways to prevent a "rogue" chapter from mis-representing OSM-F, without requiring that they hand back domains that they are already using.</div>
<div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Nick</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Frederik Ramm <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org">frederik@remote.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hi Nick,<br>
<br>
(A few lines of introduction for talk-de readers who haven't followed<br>
the issue:)<br>
<br>
Ein bisschen Hintergrund fuer die Leser von talk-de: Die OSMF will gerne<br>
lokale "Vertretungen" haben. Der Plan ist, dass der FOSSGIS e.V. diese<br>
Rolle in Deutschland spielt. Hierzu ist eine Vereinbarung zwischen dem<br>
FOSSGIS e.V. und der OSMF notwendig. Jochen und ich haben zu einem<br>
vorlaeufigen Entwurf dieser Vereinbarung im Januar Stellung genommen.<br>
Grundsaetzlich wuerde so eine Zusammenarbeit so aussehen, dass jeder,<br>
der Mitglied im FOSSGIS wird, automatisch auch Mitglied der OSMF wird,<br>
ohne dafuer extra zahlen zu muessen, und FOSSGIS zahlt dann einen<br>
Beitrag an OSMF. Natuerlich wird nach wie vor niemand gezwungen,<br>
irgendwo Mitglied zu sein, es geht nur darum, diese Zweiteilung "werde<br>
ich nun Mitglied im deutschen FOSSGIS oder in der englischen OSMF"<br>
aufzuheben - man will sich ja keine Konkurrenz machen, sondern<br>
zusammenarbeiten.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
Nick Black wrote:<br>
> Thanks for the feedback on setting up local chapters. This is the first<br>
> negative feedback about this particular aspect I've heard<br>
<br>
</div>Jochen and I have send you exactly that feedback when you asked us what<br>
we thought of the first draft of the local chapters guidelines in<br>
January this year. I am attaching a full copy of that e-mail to the end<br>
of this.<br>
<br>
(Jochen und ich haben genau diese Kritik an Nick geschickt, als wir im<br>
Januar einen vorlaeufigen Entwurf der Vereinbarung zwischen OSMF und<br>
"Local Chapters" bekamen. Eine Kopie der Mail von damals haengt an.)<br>
<br>
We had made it quite clear to you that the German community will happily<br>
enter into an agreement with OSMF and will also agree to return whatever<br>
it gained from that agreement if cooperation should stop at a later<br>
point in time, but that we would not hand over assets like the<br>
<a href="http://openstreetmap.de" target="_blank">openstreetmap.de</a> domain which we have independently of OSMF.<br>
<br>
(Wir haben klargestellt, dass die deutsche Community sicher eine<br>
Vereinbarung mit der OSMF eingehen wuerde und dass es auch kein Problem<br>
waere, alles, was die Community aufgrund dieser Vereinbarung erhaelt,<br>
nach einem eventuellen Ende der Vereinbarung zurueckzugeben, aber Dinge<br>
wie die openstreetmap.de-Domain, die wir unabhaengig von der OSMF<br>
besitzen, wuerden wir natuerlich nicht zurueckgeben.)<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> When setting up local chapters, the Foundation wanted to help local OSM<br>
> communities represent OSM officially.<br>
<br>
</div>Until now, you only ever spoke of "representing OSMF", not "representing<br>
OSM". Quote from the draft: "... 1.1 The Foundation grants the Federated<br>
Organisation the non-exclusive right to represent the Foundation in the<br>
designated territory".<br>
<br>
(Bis jetzt hiess es immer "die OSMF vertreten", nicht "OSM vertreten").<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> 1) Do you all generally agree that the OSM-Foundation needs to have a<br>
> termination clause in the contract?<br>
><br>
> 2) If so, what can we do to make it more acceptable?<br>
<br>
</div>As I said, simply make the wording so that any rights gained through the<br>
agreement have to be returned.<br>
<br>
(Wie gesagt, man aendere die Wortwahl dergestalt, dass nur das, was<br>
durch die Vereinbarung hinzugewonnen wurde, zurueckgegeben wird.)<br>
<br>
FOSSGIS e.V. already handles the bits where OSM Germany needs some<br>
"official" representation vis-a-vis authorities etc., and once we sort<br>
out the remaining details (I hope we'll be able to talk to you and some<br>
other local-chapters-to-be at SOTM) FOSSGIS e.V. can also become the<br>
OSMF local chapter for D/A/CH.<br>
<br>
(Der FOSSGIS e.V. handhabt bereits die Vertetung des OSM-Projekts<br>
gegenueber solchen Stellen, die eine "offizielle" Vertretung wollen, und<br>
sobald die verbleibenden Dinge geklaert sind - ich hoffe, wir koennen da<br>
auf der SOTM mal drueber reden - kann der FOSSGIS auch die lokale<br>
Organisation der OSMF fuer D/A/CH werden.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Bye<br>
Frederik<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:15:02 +0100<br>
From: Jochen Topf <<a href="mailto:jochen@remote.org">jochen@remote.org</a>><br>
To: Nick Black <<a href="mailto:nick@osmfoundation.org">nick@osmfoundation.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSM-Foundation Local Chapters Draft Agreement<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Nick,<br>
<br>
Frederik and I looked over the local chapters draft and have some<br>
comments. They are no "official" statement of the German FOSSGIS<br>
organisation or anybody else, just some issues that we came up with when<br>
we discussed the draft.<br>
<br>
1. Who is representing whom?<br>
We think a very fundamental issue hasn't gotten enough attention:<br>
What is the relationship between the general OSM community, the<br>
foundation and the local chapters. At the moment our understanding<br>
is that the Foundation and local organisations represent the community,<br>
each in its own way. The agreement changes this to: The Foundation<br>
is the only one representing the community and the local chapters<br>
represent the Foundation. This is especially important for the<br>
motivation of the local chapters. Why should they enter into this<br>
agreement, if they can represent the community without doing<br>
this?<br>
<br>
2. What are the local chapters for?<br>
We are missing some more general discussion of what the local<br>
chapters are for. What are they expected to do? Which jobs remain<br>
with the Foundation? We are looking for informal guidelines,<br>
visions, "use cases". There is some in the preamble, but this<br>
needs to be fleshed out more. Before we can have a legal framework,<br>
there needs to be a common cause and a common understanding what the<br>
job of the Foundation and the local chapters is. We first need<br>
to know how things *should* work before we can evaluate a proposed<br>
legal document and see whether it is the best way to implement this<br>
idea.<br>
<br>
3. Formal representation<br>
The draft gives the federated organisation the right to represent the<br>
Foundation. But legally the Foundation is represented by the board.<br>
What exactly is meant by this representation? Can the federated<br>
organisation enter into contracts in the name of the Foundation etc?<br>
<br>
4. Non-exclusivity<br>
This is probably meant in a way that the Foundation can also speak<br>
for themselves in all the territories even if there is a local<br>
group there. But we should probably not allow more than one<br>
federated member for the same area or at least give existing<br>
federated members a veto right if another group wants to also<br>
represent this territory. Also, does the Foundation want to<br>
reserve the right to "overrule" a federated member in its area?<br>
<br>
5. Membership<br>
Having all members of local organisations as members of the<br>
Foundation brings some difficulties with it. The German OSM<br>
community decided to join the existing FOSSGIS organization.<br>
Many members of FOSSGIS are not interested in OSM, they do<br>
other Open Source or Open Data stuff, but not OSM. This is<br>
especially important because of the payment of dues and because<br>
members also have obligations and not only rights. We could<br>
imaging there are similar situations in other countries.<br>
<br>
Also there are details like renewing memberships, different<br>
membership periods etc. that need to be defined properly. What<br>
about existing members?<br>
<br>
6. Providing services<br>
Section 3.2 talks about "may be required...to provide...services"<br>
This is much too vague to be in a legal document.<br>
<br>
7. Termination<br>
The rules for the termination are that the local group has to<br>
give up all right on domain names etc. At the moment these rights<br>
already belong to many local groups in the world. They did not<br>
get them from the foundation. So why give them "back" (or sign<br>
a document that says you will give them back in certain cases)?<br>
<br>
These are just some comments for discussion, not an exhaustive list.<br>
We send them to you as chairman of the working group so you can discuss<br>
things internally. Its probably not something that should be discussed<br>
to death on the public mailing list. Thanks for working on this issue!<br>
<br>
Jochen<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>-- <br>Nick Black<br><a href="http://twitter.com/nick_b">twitter.com/nick_b</a><br>
</div>