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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Brian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Good comments – and from my
“NaPTAN” perspective I share your view that data improvement should be a
two-way thing. I am very keen to see if we can make that work through this
exercise.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have always said that
linear positioning of bus stops can be good enough if it is +/- 10m given that
a bus is typically 12m long. But if it can be more precise than this, so much
the better. Lateral displacement is more serious from the mapping perspective –
and therefore the tolerance probably in both directions has to be set rather
lower.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Strangely at about the
same time as you sent your message, one of my colleagues researching something
completely different through the traveline journey planners, also commented on
issues to do with the incorrect representation of Digbeth in NaPTAN data. My
quick assessment is that neither the old nor the current coach stations have a
NaPTAN record – and what has been happening without anyone realising it is that
coaches have been shown on journey planners to be going to and from a
particular roadside stop in the area of the old coach station. I have asked
someone to investigate this and get it resolved in NaPTAN in the near future.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would be able to
comment more about the missing data and other aspect which you and others draw
to the list’s attention if I could have a copy of the NaPTAN data that has been
put through the import process – can you (or someone else on the list) either point
me to where I can find that specific data set … or can send me a copy of the
specific data that has been imported?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best wishes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Roger</span></font><font color=navy><span
lang=EN-US style='color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> talk-transit-bounces@openstreetmap.org
[mailto:talk-transit-bounces@openstreetmap.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Brian Prangle<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 01 April 2009 13:41<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org; talk-transit@openstreetmap.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus
stop database import - some moreobservations</span></font><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
line-height:115%'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
line-height:115%'>Some more views and observations on the NaPTAN data
import in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Birmingham</st1:place></st1:City>:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=msolistparagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt'><font size=2
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%'>1.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;line-height:115%;
font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></span></font>It
serves as a great QA on OSM data and shows that in the City Centre where we
have not been able to get decent GPS traces more accuracy is needed so the
potential of obtaining aerial photography is great.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>2.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> It’s a great
impetus to resurvey streets where earlier work (potentially inaccurate from NPE
tracing, older GPS devices, less points collected, inexperience, not realising
that roads have a width greater than the rendered line so placing bus stops too
close to the road etc.) can be improved.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>3.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>It’s also a great
impetus to improve practice on surveying bus stops and be much more precise and
comprehensive – also a stimulus to edit all those old bus stops where we placed
them as a node on the way rather than to the side of ways which is our current
practice.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>4.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>QA works both ways and
our surveys should help to improve NaPTAN data.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>5.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>As an exercise(excuse
the pun!) I cycled from Acocks Green to Moseley and back this morning along the
No 1 bus route and surveyed 47 bus stops each time standing at the pole(leaning
against it – you can’t get closer than that!) or underneath the plate at
a shelter: 4 bus stops coincided within 3-4 m; 17 were “good enough”
coinciding <8-10m. That’s approx 45%. The rest were out by anything up to
90m or were just missing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>6.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>I think either the pole
where there is no shelter or the bus stop plate at a shelter should be what we
survey – that’s where the identification of what we survey is located<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>7.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Where a physical stop on
one side of the road doubles up for one on the other side also – I think we’re
OK by surveying and tagging the physical one with Andy’s suggestion of a tag
opposite=yes. The NaPTAN untagged node on the other side can be left in place
to indicate the logical relationship.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>8.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>I like the idea of
tagging where the bus stop is set back in a “lay-by” from the road which might
account for some NaPTAN nodes being some distance from the road<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>9.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>For our purposes “good
enough” is probably sufficient rather than precise positional detail – I’m of
the view that as long the bus stop has more or less the right relationships to
its surroundings then that’s OK.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>10.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Surprised that there is
no data for either the closed Digbeth Coach Station which is being rebuilt or
the temporary replacement nearby. I thought we were importing off-street bus
stops? Perhaps the NaPTAN data doesn’t exist? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>11.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Can’t find any nodes
for taxi ranks – not imported or doesn’t exist for <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Birmingham</st1:place></st1:City> or I’m not looking hard enough?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>12.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>For the few nodes where
I’ve estimated the fit between OSM and NaPTAN to be “good enough” I’ve merged
the nodes deleting the unverified tag and editing source tag to
v=naptan_import;survey<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-indent:-18.0pt;line-height:normal'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>13.<span
style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'></span></font><font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Verifying the data is
going to be a long, slow process with a lot of resurveying needed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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