<div dir="auto">Sorry, this one...<div dir="auto"><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">--<br>🌍 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo<br>from my mobile 📱</div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Mensaje reenviado ----------<br>De: "Miguel Sevilla-Callejo" <<a href="mailto:msevilla00@gmail.com">msevilla00@gmail.com</a>><br>Fecha: 14/8/2017 0:42<br>Asunto: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales<br>Para: "Andy Townsend" <<a href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: <br><br type="attribution"><div dir="auto">Dear all,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I'm so frustrated reading your emails.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I've living in Aberystwyth for two years before I came this summer. I know the place, the people and the situation about the language.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Despite I do not have too many editions in OSM I'm involve actively in Spanish community and I consider myself an good editor following the wiki, working within the community and improving the data.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In other hand I'm PhD in Geography and I work with GIS and analyzing the territory and teaching Geography.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Unfortunately, as you can read, English is not my mother tongue. Sorry about that.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">First, if you think the wiki is wrong maybe you could work to improve it starting a discussion. What do you expect from a new collaborator? Does he/she have to ask directly to you?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Second, despite other pages of the wiki, the page about multilingual tagging I guess is OK as far as I know: the situation in Wales is the same than in Basque Country where we tag name=neutral, Basque and Spanish (check the wiki).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Third, although English is the language we use to tag, "name" tag is not equal to name:en out of England or other ONLY English speaker places.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It's a shame see than in other villages in Ceredigion the streets in OpenStreetMap are tag name=English_name and, if exists name:cy=Welsh_name. Have a look to New Quay for instance.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif">In Ceredigion - I guess some of you prefer to call it Cardiganshire -</span> people are bilingual - they speak Welsh, no only for fun, and English - and the street signs are in both languages (Andy, have a look of the photos in Mapillary, please). So, it's common sense to follow not MY approach, the WIKI approach: name=neutral + name:cy + name:en</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Please, could you provide a good reason not to do this? I hope something different than a aesthetic one or a preference from you who NOT live in Wales.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">As Brian said definitely we need more people here, in Wales. By the way,<span style="font-family:sans-serif"> thanks for your comprehensive reply.</span></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I'm trying to envolve some Welsh colleagues in OSM and promoting our wonderful mapping project around. I hope someone could help us to understand better the place.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Cheers</div><div dir="auto"><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">--<br>🌍 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo<br>from my mobile 📱</div></div><br><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote">El 13/8/2017 19:04, "Andy Townsend" <<a href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com" target="_blank">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="m_-986553011160315635quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994moz-cite-prefix">On 11/08/2017 17:19, Brian Prangle
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal">... and goes
to the first source of what is seen to be the authoritative
source - the wiki-
to seek guidance, </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Unfortunately, the wiki isn't always "the authoritative source".
Articles written there include both "descriptive" and "prescriptive"
ones - saying how mappers currently map things, and telling them how
they _should_ map things. When it comes to "how to map things"
often there needs to be a discussion, because no one person has the
whole picture. Sometimes people writing wiki articles take great
care to represent the different views where they exist and try and
thread a consensus course through them (Harry Wood please take a bow
at this point); and sometimes they don't. <br>
<br>
For example, <a class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org<wbr>/wiki/Sidewalks</a> says that
"The simplest method is to tag the associated highway with <tt style="background:#eef" dir="ltr" class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994mw-content-ltr"><u></u><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk" title="Key:sidewalk" target="_blank">sidewalk</a><u></u>=<u></u>both/left/right/no<u></u></tt>
(none is sometimes used, but <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk" title="Key:sidewalk" target="_blank">no is preferred</a>)", despite
<a class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk#values" target="_blank">https://taginfo.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/keys/sidewalk#values</a> showing that
"none" is the more popular value. I tried to make the wiki reflect
usage but it was immediately changed back because "<span class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994comment">The statement never described predominant usage,
but preferred usage. That hasn't changed.". Clearly someone
thinks that _they_ know better than me and the majority of
sidewalk mappers in OSM. Rather than "insisting" it is correct as
per <a class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.xkcd.com/386/" target="_blank">https://www.xkcd.com/386/</a> I decided that life was too short.
I suspect that something rather similar has happened with regard
to language tagging in Wales.</span><div class="m_-986553011160315635quoted-text"><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal">and then asks, from etiquette, what the
local community
thinks,</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
To be fair, from reading the emails it doesn't read to me like that
was what was happening; it reads very much like he was telling
everyone that disagreed with him that they were wrong without
offering any reasoning beyond "the wiki says...".<br>
<br>
Unfortunately every multiple-language situation is complicated (and
with a DWG hat on I've been involved in quite a few). Some
communities (Belgium being a notable early example) have settled on
a compound "name" that doesn't reflect any language name on the
ground but is intended to indicate that both have equal value; some
- possibly the majority, but not by much - go with name as the "most
used value" - so "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu" rather than the rather
large mouthful "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu / Södra Järnvägsgatan"* for
the street in Helsinki that I used to stay when working there,
despite all street signs being bilingual. Some have gone for
locally-relevant variations of both. However it's always the wishes
of the local mappers that should hold most sway (and, again from
personal experience with a DWG hat on, that can get difficult when
one community is under-represented in OSM).<div class="m_-986553011160315635quoted-text"><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Can this discussion <span> </span>specifically
address what is wrong with the
wiki page on Welsh placenames <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org<wbr>/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales</a>
and suggest improvements?</b></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I'd start by asking some more Welsh mappers! So far we've had the
person who created the original cyosm map arguing against a compound
name, along with a number of (very) frequent visitors from England.
Other than the person who raised the issue we've not yet had much of
a balancing population on the other side of the argument; but not
everyone follows changeset discussion comments or this list. When
the status of Western Sahara was raised with the DWG I went through
a fairly long process which started at
<a class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#p602864" target="_blank">https://forum.openstreetmap.or<wbr>g/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#p60<wbr>2864</a> to
ensure that everyone's views could be taken on board and to make
sure that no-one was missed - I made sure that ever mapper in the
region who'd recently mapped affected objects had a comment in a
changeset discussion (and if no reply a direct message) in what
appeared to be their usual language. Contacting _every_ mapper
who's mapped in Wales is unlikely to be feasible but contacting a
subset of regular mappers (perhaps based edit count > a certain
value) and based on some sort of "edits in Wales" criterion could be
doable, but based on the Western Sahara survey I'd expect that it'd
be a sizable amount of effort; just putting up a "web survey" form
somewhere and hoping people come to it won't cut it.<br>
<br>
If after that sort of discussion there's still opposition to
"compound names" in Wales I'd suggest that an initial change to the
wiki page would be the removal of the section added by "Männedorf"
in 2014
<a class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&type=revision&diff=1121276&oldid=1116200" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org<wbr>/w/index.php?title=Multilingua<wbr>l_names&type=revision&diff=<wbr>1121276&oldid=1116200</a>
that introduced the idea in the first place - but we need to make
sure that people even know about the issue first.<div class="m_-986553011160315635quoted-text"><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm also hoping that this discussion might
kickstart OMSUK's
Welsh language render project</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Well good luck with that :)
<a class="m_-986553011160315635m_8835349322228187994moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.loomio.org/d/P15nYvqg/getting-the-uk-map-going" target="_blank">https://www.loomio.org/d/P15nY<wbr>vqg/getting-the-uk-map-going</a>- seems to
be somewhat moribund; maybe a specific language render get people to
actually start doing something rather than suggesting "things that
it would be cool to do"? As I said in the loomio thread, if anyone
wants any specific help about e.g. "how to do X with lua" (or even
"what do I need to do to set up a server at Hetzner") let me know.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Andy (for the avoidance of doubt, writing in an entirely personal
capacity)<br>
<br>
* South(ern) Railway Street<br>
<br>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br></div></div>
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