<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:20.7552px">I'm forwarding an email I sent only to Andy by mistake yesterday.</span><br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">--<br>🌍 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo<br>from my mobile 📱</div></div><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Mensaje reenviado ----------<br>De: "Andy Townsend" <<a href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>><br>Fecha: 13/8/2017 19:04<br>Asunto: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales<br>Para: <<a href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>Cc: <br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="m_-5099611806762787398moz-cite-prefix">On 11/08/2017 17:19, Brian Prangle
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal">... and goes
to the first source of what is seen to be the authoritative
source - the wiki-
to seek guidance, </p>
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</blockquote>
<br>
Unfortunately, the wiki isn't always "the authoritative source".
Articles written there include both "descriptive" and "prescriptive"
ones - saying how mappers currently map things, and telling them how
they _should_ map things. When it comes to "how to map things"
often there needs to be a discussion, because no one person has the
whole picture. Sometimes people writing wiki articles take great
care to represent the different views where they exist and try and
thread a consensus course through them (Harry Wood please take a bow
at this point); and sometimes they don't. <br>
<br>
For example, <a class="m_-5099611806762787398moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/wiki/Sidewalks</a> says that
"The simplest method is to tag the associated highway with <tt style="background:#eef" dir="ltr" class="m_-5099611806762787398mw-content-ltr"><u></u><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk" title="Key:sidewalk" target="_blank">sidewalk</a><u></u>=<u></u>both/left/right/no<u></u></tt>
(none is sometimes used, but <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk" title="Key:sidewalk" target="_blank">no is preferred</a>)", despite
<a class="m_-5099611806762787398moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk#values" target="_blank">https://taginfo.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/keys/sidewalk#values</a> showing that
"none" is the more popular value. I tried to make the wiki reflect
usage but it was immediately changed back because "<span class="m_-5099611806762787398comment">The statement never described predominant usage,
but preferred usage. That hasn't changed.". Clearly someone
thinks that _they_ know better than me and the majority of
sidewalk mappers in OSM. Rather than "insisting" it is correct as
per <a class="m_-5099611806762787398moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.xkcd.com/386/" target="_blank">https://www.xkcd.com/386/</a> I decided that life was too short.
I suspect that something rather similar has happened with regard
to language tagging in Wales.</span><br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal">and then asks, from etiquette, what the
local community
thinks,</p>
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</blockquote>
<br>
To be fair, from reading the emails it doesn't read to me like that
was what was happening; it reads very much like he was telling
everyone that disagreed with him that they were wrong without
offering any reasoning beyond "the wiki says...".<br>
<br>
Unfortunately every multiple-language situation is complicated (and
with a DWG hat on I've been involved in quite a few). Some
communities (Belgium being a notable early example) have settled on
a compound "name" that doesn't reflect any language name on the
ground but is intended to indicate that both have equal value; some
- possibly the majority, but not by much - go with name as the "most
used value" - so "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu" rather than the rather
large mouthful "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu / Södra Järnvägsgatan"* for
the street in Helsinki that I used to stay when working there,
despite all street signs being bilingual. Some have gone for
locally-relevant variations of both. However it's always the wishes
of the local mappers that should hold most sway (and, again from
personal experience with a DWG hat on, that can get difficult when
one community is under-represented in OSM).<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Can this discussion <span> </span>specifically
address what is wrong with the
wiki page on Welsh placenames <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/wiki/Multilingual_names#<wbr>Wales</a>
and suggest improvements?</b></p>
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</blockquote>
<br>
I'd start by asking some more Welsh mappers! So far we've had the
person who created the original cyosm map arguing against a compound
name, along with a number of (very) frequent visitors from England.
Other than the person who raised the issue we've not yet had much of
a balancing population on the other side of the argument; but not
everyone follows changeset discussion comments or this list. When
the status of Western Sahara was raised with the DWG I went through
a fairly long process which started at
<a class="m_-5099611806762787398moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#p602864" target="_blank">https://forum.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#<wbr>p602864</a> to
ensure that everyone's views could be taken on board and to make
sure that no-one was missed - I made sure that ever mapper in the
region who'd recently mapped affected objects had a comment in a
changeset discussion (and if no reply a direct message) in what
appeared to be their usual language. Contacting _every_ mapper
who's mapped in Wales is unlikely to be feasible but contacting a
subset of regular mappers (perhaps based edit count > a certain
value) and based on some sort of "edits in Wales" criterion could be
doable, but based on the Western Sahara survey I'd expect that it'd
be a sizable amount of effort; just putting up a "web survey" form
somewhere and hoping people come to it won't cut it.<br>
<br>
If after that sort of discussion there's still opposition to
"compound names" in Wales I'd suggest that an initial change to the
wiki page would be the removal of the section added by "Männedorf"
in 2014
<a class="m_-5099611806762787398moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&type=revision&diff=1121276&oldid=1116200" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/w/index.php?title=<wbr>Multilingual_names&type=<wbr>revision&diff=1121276&oldid=<wbr>1116200</a>
that introduced the idea in the first place - but we need to make
sure that people even know about the issue first.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm also hoping that this discussion might
kickstart OMSUK's
Welsh language render project</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well good luck with that :)
<a class="m_-5099611806762787398moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.loomio.org/d/P15nYvqg/getting-the-uk-map-going" target="_blank">https://www.loomio.org/d/<wbr>P15nYvqg/getting-the-uk-map-<wbr>going</a>- seems to
be somewhat moribund; maybe a specific language render get people to
actually start doing something rather than suggesting "things that
it would be cool to do"? As I said in the loomio thread, if anyone
wants any specific help about e.g. "how to do X with lua" (or even
"what do I need to do to set up a server at Hetzner") let me know.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Andy (for the avoidance of doubt, writing in an entirely personal
capacity)<br>
<br>
* South(ern) Railway Street<br>
<br>
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<br></blockquote></div>