<div dir="ltr">Hi Miguel<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the thoughts.</div><div><br></div><div>Personally I'm against bilingual labelling though I recognise that this is common and uncontroversial in other parts of OSM. </div><div><br></div><div>My thought process has been like this:</div><div><ul><li>There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have a name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both names used.</li><li>So the most important thing is that we label them with the English and Welsh name tags.<br></li><li>What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution. <br></li><li>But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in the name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that but I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a mapping decision.</li><li>In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.</li><li>The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are correct then the value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up to the user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if both which language taking priority).</li></ul><div>To address your specific question [3] what I would do when seeing a panel displaying the Welsh and English name would be to add the values to name:en and name:cy and then add one of those to the name tag. The choice of which one to add to the name tag would be:</div><div>- if I know which one is used when communicating in English, choose that</div><div>- of I don't know, choose the Welsh name</div><div><br></div><div>But I'd be interested to understand more about the practice used in other bilingual/multilingual nations on OSM. </div></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Ben</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 March 2018 at 23:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:msevilla00@gmail.com" target="_blank">msevilla00@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Great initiative! Congratulations Ben,<br><br></div>I'm sure you have more knowledge than me about the use of Welsh but I'd considerate an other the option for your propose for the generic "name" tag: the bilingual one. <br><br>So, as I suggested last summer [1], and it was in the previous edition of the wiki, I'd use, for some situations (e.g. Aberytwyth street names) both languages in "name" tag with a "/" as separation following the indications and panels you could see in the field [2]. I guess It is a neutral an a real bilingual approach for a non English or Welsh render of OSM maps.<br><br></div><div>What do you expect if I'm editing OSM in the ground and I see a bilingual panels to fill for the name tag? Well, I did what I saw: a bilingual name as you could see in other bilingual places of the World like Basque Country [3].<br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers<br><br></div><div>Miguel<br></div><div></div><div><br></div>[1] follow this threat from the beginning: <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-<wbr>August/020465.html</a> <br>[2] <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA" target="_blank">https://www.mapillary.com/map/<wbr>im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA</a><br>[3] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Spain" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/wiki/Multilingual_names#<wbr>Spain</a><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_4386990801715012803gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">--<br><b>Miguel Sevilla-Callejo</b><br>Doctor en Geografía<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 March 2018 at 17:04, Ben Proctor <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ben@satorilab.org" target="_blank">ben@satorilab.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi all<div><br></div><div>I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales) <a href="https://openstreetmap.cymru" target="_blank">https://openstreetmap.cymru</a> . We've also been raising the profile of osm in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English <a href="http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/" target="_blank">http://cardiff.theodi.<wbr>org/tag/mapiocymru/</a> and in Welsh <a href="http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/" target="_blank">http://cardiff.theodi.or<wbr>g/cy/tag/mapiocymru/</a></div><div><br></div><div>We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language section of the Wiki <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org<wbr>/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales</a><wbr> </div><div><br></div><div>I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts. </div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Ben</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#000000"><i>Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. </i></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#000000"><i><br></i></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#000000"><i>In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in doubt look for local usage / signage.</i></font></span></div><div><span style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:Graphik,"Helvetica Neue",helvetica,"Apple Color Emoji",arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#000000"><i><br></i></font></span></div><div><span style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:Graphik,"Helvetica Neue",helvetica,"Apple Color Emoji",arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#000000"><i>Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.<br style="box-sizing:border-box"><br style="box-sizing:border-box">It may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.</i></font></span><br></div><div><span style="box-sizing:border-box;color:rgb(40,60,70);font-family:Graphik,"Helvetica Neue",helvetica,"Apple Color Emoji",arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(250,248,247)"><br></span></div><div><i>Examples:</i></div><div><i>name - Swansea</i></div><div><i>name:cy - Abertawe</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>name - Caernarfon</i></div><div><i>name:cy - Caernarfon</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>name - Heol Eglyws</i></div><div><i>name:cy - Heol Eglyws</i></div><div><i>name:en - Church Road</i></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="m_4386990801715012803h5"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:adam.c.snape@gmail.com" target="_blank">adam.c.snape@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cyc<wbr>leway) or 'alternative' (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because there is no consensus and existing use counts for a lot.<br><br></div>If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on how we ought to map (but don't yet).<span class="m_4386990801715012803m_-3827879919170273975HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br></font></span></div><span class="m_4386990801715012803m_-3827879919170273975HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">Adam<br></font></span></div><div class="m_4386990801715012803m_-3827879919170273975HOEnZb"><div class="m_4386990801715012803m_-3827879919170273975h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davefoxfac63@btinternet.com" target="_blank">davefoxfac63@btinternet.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><br>
On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not dictate how they should map.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
+1<br>
<br>
DaveF<div class="m_4386990801715012803m_-3827879919170273975m_3914587110098101867HOEnZb"><div class="m_4386990801715012803m_-3827879919170273975m_3914587110098101867h5"><br>
<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><span class="m_4386990801715012803HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br><div class="m_4386990801715012803m_-3827879919170273975gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Ben Proctor, <span style="font-size:12.8px">Technical Director</span></div><div dir="ltr"><b style="font-size:12.8px"><br></b></div><div dir="ltr"><b style="font-size:12.8px">The Satori Lab</b><span style="font-size:12.8px">, <a href="https://maps.google.com/?q=22+Windsor+Place+Cardiff.+CF10+3BY+Wales,+UK&entry=gmail&source=g">22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK</a></span><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a href="mailto:ben@satorilab.org" target="_blank">ben@satorilab.org</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/likeaword" target="_blank">@likeawor</a>d | 07904 1234 98 | <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/likeaword/" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a></span><br></div><div><br></div><div>We provide <a href="https://thesatorilab.com/our-services/?utm_source=email_sig&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=word_of_mouth" target="_blank">culture change services</a> | <a href="https://thesatorilab.com/i-want-to-know-more/?utm_source=email_sig&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=word_of_mouth" target="_blank">Sign up for our culture change newsletter</a>.</div><div><br></div><div><img src="https://drive.google.com/a/satorilab.org/uc?id=0B26QhzOpopDcTTdFbW55dXdTeHc&export=download" width="420" height="174"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Ben Proctor, <span style="font-size:12.8px">Technical Director</span></div><div dir="ltr"><b style="font-size:12.8px"><br></b></div><div dir="ltr"><b style="font-size:12.8px">The Satori Lab</b><span style="font-size:12.8px">, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK</span><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a href="mailto:ben@satorilab.org" target="_blank">ben@satorilab.org</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/likeaword" target="_blank">@likeawor</a>d | 07904 1234 98 | <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/likeaword/" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a></span><br></div><div><br></div><div>We provide <a href="https://thesatorilab.com/our-services/?utm_source=email_sig&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=word_of_mouth" target="_blank">culture change services</a> | <a href="https://thesatorilab.com/i-want-to-know-more/?utm_source=email_sig&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=word_of_mouth" target="_blank">Sign up for our culture change newsletter</a>.</div><div><br></div><div><img src="https://drive.google.com/a/satorilab.org/uc?id=0B26QhzOpopDcTTdFbW55dXdTeHc&export=download" width="420" height="174"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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