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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hummm ....<br>
<br>
There area number of places around me that have name:ru ... yet
there are no signs with this language on them.<br>
And there are some in other languages too... <br>
<br>
I see nothing wrong with that. These names do not have to be
present on a local sign. <br>
<br>
So I see nothing wrong with having name:cy where you may not find
a sign with that Welsh name on it. <br>
<br>
The "name" tag value should carry the value that the majority use
in the local community, if that is reflected on local signs, good.
<br>
<br>
For rendering .. I would use the 'name' value where I wanted a map
with the local names/languages. <br>
Where I wanted to produce a map in a certain language - say
English I would use the 'name:en', if that does not exist I'd use
the fall back 'name'. <br>
<br>
<br>
On 26/03/18 23:04, Gregory wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADyJsPAZNgyrJ4E=3kb6ukOWMEh=u28=dqdgH5fPjjSco2rjyw@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">The
OpenStreetMap rule for all time has been "what's on the ground
is what we use", in the case of names that would be what's on
the road signs.</span>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">I
was in Wales last week and saw a mix of road names (I didn't
focus on place names, but it should still stand):<br>
1)<span> </span><span class="gmail-il">Welsh</span><span> </span>on
top line, English below.<br>
2) English on top line,<span> </span><span class="gmail-il">Welsh</span><span> </span>below.<br>
3)<span> </span><span class="gmail-il">Welsh</span><span> </span>only.</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">It
seemed consistent for areas, maybe relating to how old the
streets were or politics - I think this is interesting enough.</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">I
would tag it the streets always with 2-3 name tags...<br>
A) name:cy and name:en used whenever they are present on a
sign. Do not transliterate. When we have a complete map, this
then provides insight into the areas (where and % of roads)
actually have Bilingual names.</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">B)
You should additionally add a "name" value. My preference is
for the name on the top line. I can see the argument for
putting both/all names in, but I think this gets messy as
OpenStreetMap doesn't have the concept of a separator.</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">The
"name" tag is a used as a fallback (what a German-language map
would show, what a<span> </span><span class="gmail-il">Welsh</span>-language
map would show if no name:cy, etc). You should think of it as
a fallback name, rather than a default name.</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">This
can then provide us with insight, what streets have<span> </span><span
class="gmail-il">Welsh</span><span> </span>as the primary
name (name:cy = name)? <br>
<br>
<br>
While in Wales, I did do some filming so I could demonstrate
how to map bilingual names/places. I've not finished the
editing yet, but can share a link when it's published.</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">From
England,</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Gregory.</div>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 25 March 2018 at 23:13, <a
href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> On 25/03/2018 21:49,
Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">... <span class="">
<div>Sorry to insist but you will undermine,
especially, Welsh names, for a generic rendering
that uses "name" tags. Think about that.<br>
</div>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Can you give a specific example of that? Are you saying
that "it's important to pretend that Welsh names are
displayed even where they aren't used very often" by
sticking them on the end of the more commonly used name?
The other way around (using Welsh in "name" because it is
the most used name) presumably wouldn't "undermine ...
Welsh names". It could be that I'm completely
misunderstanding what you're saying here but I really
don't follow the argument at all.<span class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy"
and "name:en" too.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> That's great news - it'll allow maps like <a
class="m_4525024695870515675moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://openstreetmap.cymru/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://openstreetmap.cymru/</a>
(and mine!) to render appropriate names in appropriate
areas.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On 25 March
2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:curond@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">curond@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</span><span class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<ul>
<li>The fundamental problem is
that there is no "name" which is
correct. In the medium term, as
long as the name:cy and name:en
are correct then the value of
"name" should become less
significant. Then it can be up
to the user to decide if they
want to display English, Welsh
or both (and if both which
language taking priority).</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>The problem currently, is that
display choice isn't available.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of
at least 3 choices right now:<br>
<br>
<ul>
<li>OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which
just use the "name" tag:</li>
</ul>
<br>
<a class="m_4525024695870515675moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/<wbr>#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565</a><br>
<br>
<ul>
<li>Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":</li>
</ul>
<br>
<a class="m_4525024695870515675moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407&ll=-5.264972448348999&ch=17"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=<wbr>51.88397494833407&ll=-5.<wbr>264972448348999&ch=17</a><br>
<br>
<ul>
<li>Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en",
"name:ga" or "name" depending on location:</li>
</ul>
<br>
<a class="m_4525024695870515675moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18&lat=51.883531&lon=-5.264898"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://map.atownsend.org.uk/<wbr>maps/map/map.html#zoom=18&lat=<wbr>51.883531&lon=-5.264898</a><br>
<br>
and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.)
can do whatever they want.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Andy<br>
<br>
PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the
list - I'm guessing that it was but that he's actually not
subscribed yet and his reply went both to that and Miguel.<br>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
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