<div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so far:</div><div>The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very controversial part of the discussion. </div><div><br></div><div>I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too much concern.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there several suggestions have been floated:</div><div><ul><li>always use the name that is used in Welsh </li><li>use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what the wiki currently suggests)</li><li>use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)</li><li>use the name on local signage</li></ul></div><div>We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that is the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the name on local signage or the name used by the "local population". </div><div><br></div><div>From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population is likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be best advised to refer to local signage.</div><div><br></div><div>Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name. </div><div><br></div><div>So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual naming in the name: tag. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>What does everyone think?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend <<a href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com" target="_blank">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Hi Gruff, hi Ben,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
<div>The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is
really helpful for this but it's unfortunate that
ultimately we have to choose a single name tag for each
place name - giving the impression that one language has
precedence over another. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has
precedence over another". If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's
available for everyone to use. It's entirely possible, right now,
to create a map using only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed
out, <a href="https://openstreetmap.cymru/" target="_blank">https://openstreetmap.cymru/</a> does exactly that already).
Other maps can choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in
others (see
<a href="https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182" target="_blank">https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182</a>
for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or
English-first, or use different colours for different languages,
or, or...</p>
<p>The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the
debate a little. If we accept the premise that the native
language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM is a community
mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect
native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers
didn't. Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise
authentic Welsh place names where that's possible? </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be
neutral - see
<a href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf" target="_blank">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf</a>
. It favours "on the ground" current usage. The Data Working
Group gets _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official
language of country X is Y, therefore all placenames in country X
should be displayed at <a href="http://osm.org" target="_blank">osm.org</a> in language Y". Where the majority
of people in an area speak a different language to the majority of
people in the rest of the country, it is only fair to reflect that
local language in the "name" tag. OSM should not be making
decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than others
via some sort of "historical authenticity test". Imagine trying
to apply that to Kaliningrad
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442</a> (look at all the
"old_name" tags there for context). In Wales, OSM has
occasionally had mappers making "forced language changes" both
ways - either changing names in predominantly English-speaking
areas to Welsh versions of the original English and English
speakers changing original (and most common in local usage) Welsh
names to English versions.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance
from an external body. Does the Welsh Government have a
position on place names that we can refer to? I notice that
the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a recommended list
of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed
under OGL 3.0: <br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Different OSM communities do this in different ways. I believe
that in Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which
may differ from local usage. Sometimes that loses some local
colour - in Dublin "Anglesea Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar
Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar Anglesea". See also
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235</a> which I've heard
referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics
both national and local associated with that).<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new
to OSM and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any
way, I wouldn't go against the group decision on this and have
been quite conservative with my edits so far because I know
it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think you should be
congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin down
a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong
sentiment in this part of the world! <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making
sure that Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently
are not. It always strikes me as a bit jarring to see English
names jumping out in predominantly Welsh areas at
<a href="https://map.atownsend.org.uk/" target="_blank">https://map.atownsend.org.uk/</a> (which will use the default "name"
tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's trying to show Welsh
names).</p>
<p>Moving on to Ben's original mail:<br>
</p>
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <<a href="mailto:ben@benproctor.co.uk" target="_blank">ben@benproctor.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div>From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose,
for discussion, replacing this text with the following
(reasoning follows):<br>
<br>
<i>[starts/---]<br>
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by
which the place is widely known in Wales. This could be
English or Welsh but not both. So name: Wales or name:
Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.<br>
</i></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><i>Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a
place is known in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in
English-speaking areas as another. In OSM typically the "name"
tag would be set according to the locally-used language, so "Yr
Wyddfa" for <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169</a> makes
sense to me.</i></p>
<p><i>That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages -
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437</a> is currently
"name=Cymru / Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are
actually from that area comment on whether that's appropriate or
not.<br>
</i></p>
<p><i><br>
</i></p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><i><br>
name:en should be used to give the name by which the
place or feature is known in English.<br>
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the
place or feature is known in Welsh<br>
<br>
Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For
example:<br>
<br>
name: Swansea<br>
name:en Swansea<br>
name:cy Abertawe<br>
<br>
This allows places and features to be named
unambiguously and so rather than duplication is
conveying useful new information.</i></div>
<div><i>[---/ends]</i><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><i>I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense
for essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know
that "yes there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh
name". Otherwise if someone was to change the name there to
"name=Swansea / Abertawe" it would break <a href="http://map.atownsend.org.uk" target="_blank">map.atownsend.org.uk</a>
which explicitly tries not to show compound names in Wales,
England or Scotland. Someone who does want to show compound
names can of course do that using "name:cy / name:en". For
completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do use
compound names. The Brussels region of Belgium is another
example, and hyphenated names there are I believe "the official
names". That sort of tagging hasn't traditionally been done in
Wales, England, or Scotland though.<br>
</i></p>
<p>Best Regards,</p>
<p>Andy</p>
<p>For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group
who tend to handle some of these language disputes and separately
to that the developer of <a href="https://map.atownsend.org.uk/" target="_blank">https://map.atownsend.org.uk/</a> .<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-GB mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>