<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 11:14, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB <<a href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>I run into from time to time and was unsure how to tag this.<br></div><div><br></div><div>On the other hand highway=track is supposed to be used on<br></div><div>roads used to access fields/forests (often unpaved and of low<br></div><div>quality, but there are also high quality asphalt<br></div><div>tracktype=grade1 surface=asphalt ones).<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think I have said this previously, but this feels like a very "old world" viewpoint to me (and yes I do know which list this is). Lexico's first definition [1] more closely agrees with my feeling on the matter, but over time the OSM wiki seems to have been edited progressively further away from this usage. <br></div><div><br></div><div>In countries with a longer history, farming and forestry may be the last bastions for this sort of "improvised but then improved as necessary" road, but to my mind it is still counterintuitive to define tracks as "for farming and forestry work". I would tend to say that the higher grades of track may be more appropriately tagged as service roads, especially if they look like someone's gone along and reworked them to be less 'opportunistic' at some point. Yes, they serve a farm rather than a warehouse, but they are still largely the same function. <br></div><div><br></div><div>[1]: <a href="https://www.lexico.com/definition/track">https://www.lexico.com/definition/track</a></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div><br></div><div>So with road that is both access road to single house and<br></div><div>forest neither highway=track nor highway=service service=driveway<br></div><div>really matches.<br></div></div></blockquote><div> </div><div>I think it's a service road, drop the 'driveway' part for the multi-use portion. <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div><br></div><div>Dec 13, 2020, 11:44 by <a href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a>:<br></div><blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px"><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px"><div><div dir="ltr">IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis), <br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">" ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, but either way, it gets close to its destination. <b>It is rare for a driveway to be the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)."</b><br></div><div dir="ltr"><b></b><br></div><div dir="ltr">(pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><b></b><br></div><div dir="ltr">So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a track), it is not a driveway. Does this solve the problem?<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:new times,serif;font-size:16px"><div>Regards,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Peter<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Peter Neale<br></div><div>t: 01908 309666 <br></div><div>m: 07968 341930 <br></div><div>skype: nealepb<br></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yahoo_quoted_8551933658"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"><div>On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton <<a href="mailto:bainton.ete@gmail.com" target="_blank">bainton.ete@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yiv8395480587"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track doesn't solve the problem.<br></div><div><br></div><div>That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different surfaces can be caught in the attributes.<br></div></div><div><br></div><div id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yiv8395480587yqt73606"><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:bainton.ete@gmail.com" shape="rect" target="_blank">bainton.ete@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">> </span></span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" style="font-size:14.6667px" href="https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg</a><br></div><div>><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If</span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for</span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"</span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.</span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building). </span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?</span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.</span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br></div><div><span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await correction by my olders.</span></span><br></div></div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org" shape="rect" target="_blank">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><span style="font-size:14.6667px">>Getting back to this
case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the</span></span><br></div><div> <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><span style="font-size:14.6667px">>cattle-grid the public
bridleway continues left through the farm</span></span><br></div><div> <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><span style="font-size:14.6667px">>buildings, and the surface
deteriorates to the usual farm mud:</span></span><br></div><div> <br></div><div> <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><span style="font-size:14.6667px"> <span> ></span></span></span><a rel="noopener noreferrer" style="margin:0px;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" href="https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg</a><br></div></div><div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded familiar.<br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice <b>but</b> the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly
badly-maintained footpaths.<br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally,
but...<br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..<br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Nick<br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yiv8395480587gmail-m_7752574287488489371gmail-m_-5364143718525480236gmail-m_8201928484290745803Signature"><div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yiv8395480587gmail-m_7752574287488489371gmail-m_-5364143718525480236gmail-m_8201928484290745803divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr"><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></p><div style="margin:0px"><br></div></div></div></div></div><div id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yiv8395480587gmail-m_7752574287488489371gmail-m_-5364143718525480236gmail-m_8201928484290745803appendonsend"><br></div><div><hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%"><br></div><div id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yiv8395480587gmail-m_7752574287488489371gmail-m_-5364143718525480236gmail-m_8201928484290745803divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>From:</b> Martin Wynne <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:martin@templot.com" shape="rect" target="_blank">martin@templot.com</a>><br clear="none"> <b>Sent:</b> 12 December 2020 14:30<br clear="none"> <b>To:</b> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org" shape="rect" target="_blank">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a> <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org" shape="rect" target="_blank">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a>><br clear="none"> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track</span></span> </div><div> <br></div></div><div><div><span style="font-size:13px"><span><span style="font-size:11pt"></span></span></span><br></div><div><div>On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:<br></div><div> <br></div><div> > <br></div><div> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. <br></div><div> > Perhaps that someone is you?<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Hi Andy,<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, <br></div><div> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space <br></div><div> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly <br></div><div> by hosting something from OSM.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the<br></div><div> > standard map rendering as per <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/" shape="rect" target="_blank"> https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/</a><br></div><div> > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the<br></div><div> > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as<br></div><div> > <br></div><div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475</a> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> Thanks. I have been looking at <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/</a> but <br></div><div> I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for <br></div><div> the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only <br></div><div> for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of <br></div><div> creating my own map does appeal to me.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the <br></div><div> cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm <br></div><div> buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:<br></div><div> <br></div><div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg</a><br></div><div> <br></div><div> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If <br></div><div> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for <br></div><div> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" <br></div><div> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more <br></div><div> than a "track" - note the double gates:<br></div><div> <br></div><div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8</a><br></div><div> <br></div><div> cheers,<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Martin.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> _______________________________________________<br></div><div> Talk-GB mailing list<br></div><div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org" shape="rect" target="_blank">Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb</a><br></div></div></div></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div> Talk-GB mailing list<br></div><div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org" shape="rect" target="_blank">Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb</a><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div id="gmail-m_-3054839876907665446ydp9ae28282yqt31428"><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>Talk-GB mailing list<br></div><div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org" shape="rect" target="_blank">Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb" shape="rect" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div> </div>
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