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<p>There's a lot of debate in one of my clubs about what the
Sustrans routes are actually for, as many aren't suitable for
practical active travel (preferring a long muddy off-road route to
a short one on reasonable roads) while others are of limited use
to serious road cyclists (too rough) or leisure/family cycling
(too far from anywhere much). Of course they shouldn't get all the
blame; they're often at the mercy of local authorities <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>That doesn't help much with mapping of course. Unfortunately
neither does the rate of degradation of many unpaved routes,
whether seasonal or permanent. I see a middle ground between your
two, or perhaps a split of the "off-road route": somewhere you
could happily take the kids on hybrids in summer (when most casual
riding takes place), but that turns into a mudbath for an MTB in
the winter (when only hardy riders are out). Mapping that to
serve both user groups may actually be impossible, or require more
detail than can reasonably be recorded and presented <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>As far as some bikes having difficulty, it's also the rider. I
have friends who are willing to ride stretches of pretty rough
tracks on 25mm tyres and fixed gears (e.g. the byways around
Stonehenge last weekend), while others complain about much easier
gravel on slightly bigger tyres; my own ability to deal with
rough stuff on the tourer improves the more mountain biking I do.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/06/2021 15:43, Simon Still wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BB3E7D3F-7B1E-4909-85A6-D353C87FFDE9@gmail.com">
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I think this is a big issue with fairly large sections of Sustrans
’National Cycle Network’ - I ride a few sections around Guildford
throughout the year on my mountain bike and there are a few that
have roots / root steps, that are muddy and slippery in winter and
others that are soft sand in summer.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Personally the really useful distinctions are </div>
<div class="">- suitable for all bikes in all weathers (which is
the target that National cycle network *should* require for
Sustrans classification). </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That includes a Brompton, a thin tyres ‘road’ bike,
or a dutch style city bike. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- ‘off road route’ where some bikes will have
difficulty. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 15 Jun 2021, at 13:11, Chris Hodges <<a
href="mailto:chris@c-hodges.co.uk" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">chris@c-hodges.co.uk</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">This is really tricky TBH; there's a big
grey area. My road bike is a fairly rugged tourer,
and I'd take it on KAW, in summer at least. Some of
my friends have done it on similar machines. It would
be heavy going but that's acceptable. Cycling UK have
a helpful page on bike suitability at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/what-bike-best-king-alfreds-way-and-other-questions"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/what-bike-best-king-alfreds-way-and-other-questions</a>
but that's helpful for the rider, not the mapper<br
class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Some of the other stretches of NCN are
pretty rough for a (skinny-tyred) road bike, like 45
from Ironbridge to Bridgnorth (flat but boneshaking,
and with a hilly road alternative) and some towpath
routes with steep gravel descents near bridges where
grip becomes a limiting factor.<br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class="">In an ideal world the tracktype and surface
tags would help end users, but they're rarely picked
up.</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class="">I pretty much agree with your opinion. I'd
say most but not "almost all" bikes could do KAW; but
that would include a lot of rugged hybrids that never
leave the city. I suspect you and I could ride it
within a few days and come up with a different answer
- or possibly even ride it together and not agree!</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Chris<br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/06/2021 12:38, Jon
Pennycook wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAO56uo=KueLd4XbwoqV_uJhusKqE9JeWz22EcKg5-LuoYs0n4w@mail.gmail.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hello.<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Is there a clear differentiator
between what should be tagged as
route=bicycle/network=rcn and
route=mtb/network=rcn? In particular: <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/12665990"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/12665990</a>
(King Alfred's Way), currently tagged as
route=bicycle/network=rcn. From the description,
it's intended for "gravel or cross-country bikes."</div>
<div class="">That particular relation is also
tagged ref=NB, implying it's part of the National
Byway (<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Byway"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Byway</a>),
but the Wikipedia page for the National Byway (<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Byway"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Byway</a>)
has "It runs along quiet roads, rather than a
mixture of roads and tracks like the National
Cycle Network, making it more appropriate for road
bikes." which doesn't fit with the route of the
King Alfred's Way.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In my opinion, unless there's a clear
definition of the difference, a route=bicycle
relation should be suitable for almost all
bikes, leaving MTB for routes requiring off-road
bikes. I certainly wouldn't take a road bike on a
"gravel or cross-country" route!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Jon<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
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