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<p><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">> </span>One thing I don't understand is why bicycles are "yes" rather than "designated" on a bridleway, when the access is set out legally - and for that matter whether it's different for a (restricted) byway.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It’s a bit of an odd one. Cyclists are, by default, allowed to ride on public bridleways but the way isn’t designated for them. Therefore, a local authority can issue an order, or a local bye-law
can be made, to prevent cyclists from riding on a public bridleway. However, the same is not true for horse riders or pedestrians – these transport modes cannot be prevented from accessing a public bridleway (except temporarily for safety closures etc).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">That being said, I think both “bicycle=designated” and “bicycle=yes” are used widely for public bridleways (in fact, I’ve used both). It ultimately isn’t really an issue as both are saying cyclists
are allowed and I know some don’t use =designated for this reason.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">For a restricted byway, I think bicycle=designated is always the “correct” value, since legal access is designated to all non-mechanically propelled vehicles.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Adesignation%3Drestricted_byway">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Adesignation%3Drestricted_byway</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">HTH<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Nathan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Chris Hodges <chris@c-hodges.co.uk>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 October 2021 11:17<br>
<b>To:</b> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Talk-GB] "designated" and "permissive" confuse new people<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I agree with your top point that "designated" applies to modes not ways. <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I hadn't noticed that the designation was missing when I split the way from the horribly muddy bridleway that continues NE from the end of the drive - yes it is a public bridleway. Anyway I'm still logged in so I could fix that easily. One thing I don't
understand is why bicycles are "yes" rather than "designated" on a bridleway, when the access is set out legally - and for that matter whether it's different for a (restricted) byway.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Also , that "further guidance" link reminded me of another edit I was planning to make (many miles away, barrier=debris where someone has cut trees down across a bridleway), so thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>C<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 04/10/2021 10:49, nathan case wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">“Access=designated” should not be used as a tag itself, the designated value is instead used when the route is specifically intended for a particular transport mode.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddesignated">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddesignated</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It looks like that bridleway is actually a public bridleway. Public bridleways are legally designated for the use of horse riders and pedestrians, cyclists are also permitted so I would tag horse=designated,
foot=designated, and bicycle=yes (unless otherwise signed as prohibited). Also include designation=public_bridleway and prow_ref=* (if that is available).
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access_provisions_in_the_United_Kingdom#Public_bridleways">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access_provisions_in_the_United_Kingdom#Public_bridleways</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Adesignation%3Dpublic_bridleway">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Adesignation%3Dpublic_bridleway</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In cases where public rights of way are shared with “other” ways, for example your public bridleway and a private driveway, map the “highest” classification way and add the appropriate access tags
for each transport mode individually.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Further_guidance_on_tagging_Public_Rights_of_Way_in_the_United_Kingdom#PRoW_runs_along_the_same_route_as_another_highway">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Further_guidance_on_tagging_Public_Rights_of_Way_in_the_United_Kingdom#PRoW_runs_along_the_same_route_as_another_highway</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In terms of confusion, the iD editor does have the little “info” buttons next to inputted values. Most of the ones relating to access tagging (e.g. foot=designated) do now have descriptions associated
with them. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hope the above is helpful.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> testtest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Chris Hodges
<a href="mailto:chris@c-hodges.co.uk"><chris@c-hodges.co.uk></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 October 2021 09:42<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Talk-GB] "designated" and "permissive" confuse new people</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As someone who may have made this mistake in the past, I reckon along with requesting confirmation, we should have a "more info" link (not "Wiki" IMO though that's where it should point) as close as possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I often find myself on bridleways (and less often footpaths) that are also private road, farm building access, or shared driveways. The distinction between "access=destination" and "foot,horses,bicycles=yes, motor_vehicles=destination" is perhaps a little
subtle. Here's one that I got wrong in a different way (fixed now) by putting "motor_vehicles=no" when it's the way to drive up to the houses ("private" vs. "destination" is another question):
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/884300724">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/884300724</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The actual "designated" vs. "permissive" shouldn't be too hard for anyone familiar with "permissive" on OS maps.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Chris<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 02/10/2021 21:02, Jon Pennycook wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This sounds like a good idea: "request confirmation for commonly misunderstood options"<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 at 19:06, David Woolley <<a href="mailto:forums@david-woolley.me.uk">forums@david-woolley.me.uk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 02/10/2021 18:53, David Woolley wrote:<br>
> I guess tools could indicate country specific assumptions, when <br>
> providing arrays of check boxes, and give detailed explanations <br>
> (although simply greying out is probably wrong, as there may be cases to <br>
> override assumptions - maybe greyed with and without a check mark?), and <br>
> request confirmation for commonly misunderstood options,<br>
<br>
Oops, I mis-edited the above when composing, and the parentheses are in <br>
a confusion place. It was supposed to say:<br>
<br>
I guess tools could indicate country specific assumptions, when <br>
providing arrays of check boxes, (although simply greying out is <br>
probably wrong, as there may be cases to override assumptions - maybe <br>
greyed with and without a check mark?) and give detailed explanations, <br>
and request confirmation for commonly misunderstood options<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-GB mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Talk-GB mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org">Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Talk-GB mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org">Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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