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<p>I will try and encourage Sustrans to setup some method of
accepting error reports for their maps (and to actually action
the reports). My understanding is that the network is "owned" by
a series of Network Managers (who each have an area of a few
counties) and these Network Managers are the only ones who can
authorise changes to the official Sustrans map. I've been
frustrated (as have others) by the lack of response to reports
of what seem to be obvious errors in the Sustrans mapping but
I'll keep on at Sustrans.</p>
<p>Eventually I'd hope that the Sustrans and OSM maps become much
closer and that the Sustrans mapping can be taken as "the truth"
but, at the moment, the quality of the Sustrans mapping includes
too many errors for this to be possible.</p>
<p>In your specific example, I'd bet that Sustrans have just been
very slow in adding the new NCN422 to their maps and this is a
good example of where I hope they're able to use my comparison
work to improve things.</p>
<p>Ian<br>
</p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/02/2023 21:29, Jon Pennycook
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:LOYP123MB3200634F2C7E2906DD45AF6AD5A99@LOYP123MB3200.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
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255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
Hello Ian.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
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<br>
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"<span style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt;">Routes that OSM have included as NCN but
which are not part of the Sustrans network. e.g. NCN 627 north
of Sheffield, NCN 422 near Wokingham"</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
<span style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
12pt;">NCN422 is signposted and appears on the local council
maps. It was supposed to run from Newbury to Windsor (or
maybe Legoland) along the A4 and A329 and then along an
unknown route to Windsor, but Windsor & Maidenhead Council
(who cover Ascot as well as Windsor) pulled out of the scheme
- I think this may have been because of problems with the
royal lands (something about cycling infrastructure next to a
busy road causing damage to the environment). </span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
<span style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
12pt;" class="ContentPasted0"><a
href="https://www.reading.gov.uk/vehicles-roads-and-transport/transport-schemes-and-projects/ncn-cycle-route-422/"
id="LPNoLPOWALinkPreview" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.reading.gov.uk/vehicles-roads-and-transport/transport-schemes-and-projects/ncn-cycle-route-422/</a><br>
</span></div>
<div><a
href="https://www.reading.gov.uk/vehicles-roads-and-transport/cycling/"
id="LPNoLPOWALinkPreview_1" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.reading.gov.uk/vehicles-roads-and-transport/cycling/</a><br>
</div>
<a
href="https://www.wokingham.gov.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=373358&type=full&servicetype=Attachment"
id="LPlnk235064" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.wokingham.gov.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=373358&type=full&servicetype=Attachment</a><br>
<div class="elementToProof ContentPasted1"><a
href="https://www.wokingham.gov.uk/roadworks-and-outdoor-maintenance/major-new-roads/a329-cycleway/"
id="LPNoLPOWALinkPreview_2" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.wokingham.gov.uk/roadworks-and-outdoor-maintenance/major-new-roads/a329-cycleway/</a><br>
</div>
<div class="elementToProof ContentPasted1 ContentPasted2"><a
href="https://democracy.slough.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=73452"
id="LPlnk440212" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://democracy.slough.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=73452</a><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="elementToProof ContentPasted1" style="font-family:
Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Of course, it's possible that after being allocated a route
number, maybe Sustrans rejected the actual infrastructure as
being substandard, but I've never heard of them doing such a
thing. However, in that case, I wouldn't have expected the
councils to spend money on attaching NCN422 to their signs.</div>
<div class="elementToProof ContentPasted1" style="font-family:
Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Some of the discrepancies near me are due to new housing
developments - developers seem able to close
<span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline
!important" class="ContentPasted3">
or divert<span class="ContentPasted3"> </span></span>parts of
the National Cycle Network without anyone noticing, and some
others are due to improvements (like safe crossings of dual
carriageways).</div>
<div class="elementToProof ContentPasted1" style="font-family:
Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
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<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Jon</span><br>
</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Ian
Dent <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ian@dent.org.uk"><ian@dent.org.uk></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 February 2023 20:45<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org">talk-gb@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org"><talk-gb@openstreetmap.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Talk-GB] National Cycle Network discrepancies
between Sustrans and OSM data</font>
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<p>I’ve been on a campaign to get the accuracy of the Sustrans
National Cycle Network improved for quite a while now and
have made some progress in engaging with Sustrans.</p>
<p>I’ve found that the NCN plotted on OpenStreetMap differs in
a number of places from that in the Sustrans mapping.</p>
<p>I’ve created a coarse visualisation of the differences –
see <a
href="https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdent.org.uk%2Fsustrans%2Fsustrans-ncn-inconsistences%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjon.pennycook1%40physics.org%7C1f740373fd8c4064bf2508db1771d2cd%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C638129549855692997%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WgJi4vDdJy0k7uLLvEDeZUY%2B01aPrQn8DjXDXAnNeN0%3D&reserved=0"
originalsrc="https://dent.org.uk/sustrans/sustrans-ncn-inconsistences/"
shash="Y6j26JcSeHnfRpq6SAJQt9iC7CRgyTiez2PEjPrUCyT/rHyMqT/zICU4+vwy8X/F3nN3pmW+gPTbV4XF2UeRX8ClfruoBUBbEJ9bLxfy3TD5e6r0O14m6aC/qqCByxludFjj55LraBf0fFssS/SJD3Y0wkIfbrIWIP013pbx5jU="
class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://dent.org.uk/sustrans/sustrans-ncn-inconsistences/</a>
- which, by focusing on the thick red and blue areas shows
which areas to investigate in detail. Note this is a
snapshot at Feb 23 and won’t reflect any changes in OSM or
Sustrans data until I update it. Also note it is intended to
show where to focus and some of the smaller focus areas may
be errors in how I’ve done the mapping.</p>
<p>I know the Derbyshire NCN fairly well and have found that
most of the discrepancies are due to errors in the Sustrans
data rather than OSM and suspect this may be the case across
the country.
</p>
<p>Sustrans have gone through a process of removing some of
their routes and “reclassifying” others (i.e. not being
responsible for them in the future). I’ve excluded these
removed and reclassified sections from the map and the
comparison with the OSM even though a lot of the routes
still appear in OSM as they still have signage on the
ground. I’m taking advice on what to do about removed and
reclassified routes and will post a separate note on this
subject later.</p>
<p>I’m keen that Sustrans internally review the discrepancies
and make changes to their mapping when it is in error. I’ve
had some success in discussions but it is a slow process!
There is discussion about involving the Sustrans volunteer
force who are very geographically spread and will have local
knowledge.</p>
<p>I’m also keen to understand how best to communicate the
discrepancy areas to people within the OSM community with
local knowledge and who can, where the OSM is in error, make
the necessary OSM changes.</p>
<p>Discrepancies are for various reasons including:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<p>mismatches on how the route is mapped (the map shows
differences of 10 metres or more).</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Routes that Sustrans have classed as regional but OSM
as national (or vice versa). e.g. NCN 30 south of
Lowestoft, NCN 568 on The Wirral</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>New Sustrans routes that haven’t yet reached OSM – e.g.
NCN 28 east of Plymouth</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Routes that Sustrans classes as “links” but OSM has as
NCN – e.g. NCN 28 near Dartmouth. I think these are
generally Sustrans errors.</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Routes that OSM have included as NCN but which are not
part of the Sustrans network. e.g. NCN 627 north of
Sheffield, NCN 422 near Wokingham</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Some ferries are included as routes in OSM – e.g. NCN 2
near Plymouth</p>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Sustrans data for the NCN can be found at <a
href="https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata-sustrans-uk.opendata.arcgis.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjon.pennycook1%40physics.org%7C1f740373fd8c4064bf2508db1771d2cd%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C638129549855692997%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=atb6f2ioaAi1tsP%2FJsmme7FwLlte6cm8DDM%2B8dMwarI%3D&reserved=0"
originalsrc="https://data-sustrans-uk.opendata.arcgis.com/"
shash="F+P6T8E6LZTpsUngg/zgqv5Wf1AefiyVybw/9oTkmbKynL3zH5xAdE7BnIv4P4ixo9BvA/6uldgM76ywGmChn3nDMcWcRtHsoLtaMChuCl/qthLPEgIbV+CeeSXUzYglxmlFMdDs3nsva1HoI5tGfOU0sJEX4bAy+m3G37gXo6M="
class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://data-sustrans-uk.opendata.arcgis.com/</a> (Open
Government Licence). Note that a lot of this isn’t accurate
so don’t take it as gospel – on the ground survey is needed.</p>
<p>I’ll continue to work with Sustrans to try and get their
errors improved. I’d appreciate advice on how to get the OSM
community to consider the discrepancies and fix any OSM
errors found (local knowledge needed).</p>
<p>Thanks to those who’ve already discussed this with me –
particularly the recent East Midlands OSM meeting.</p>
<p style="line-height:100%; margin-bottom:0cm">Ian<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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