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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14.11.2012 09:26, Maurizio Daniele
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOCh=5CikLkQui+dJ29gut+Q08CS9zrKa6tWN10RTK9nyVmLyw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A proposito di WMS e opendata (vedi mail sul mapping party),
il Piemonte tutto e la città di Torino in particolare hanno una
massa enorme di dati pubblicati open</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
It's true that these data are open in the sense that everyone can
access them and work with them. But<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOCh=5CikLkQui+dJ29gut+Q08CS9zrKa6tWN10RTK9nyVmLyw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div> e integrabili in OSM</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
?? The CC-BY license (here taken from the Torino data) states
clearly that:<br>
<br>
**** begin quote<br>
<p>Il fruitore, in caso di riproduzione o pubblicazione di
elaborazioni contenenti informazioni reperite sul Geoportale della
Città, ha l'obbligo di rispettare i vincoli previsti dalla
licenza, segnalando la proprietà dei dati riportando la seguente
frase:</p>
<p><em>"Base cartografica realizzata da [Licenziatario], integrata
con [Livelli informativi o Servizi][data] della Città di Torino
reperiti sul Geoportale del Comune di Torino"<br>
</em><br>
**** end quote<br>
</p>
<p>To integrate/import such data into OSM, the copyright holder has
to permit OSM to omit the direct attribution and attribute via the
website. As far as I'm aware this permission has to be given in
written form - there are examples where this has been achieved,
for example for the ortophotos in the PCN layer which are a good
source for aerial imagery of the whole of Italy. This is the
permission letter:<br>
</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:ITALY_Auth_portale_cartografico_nazionale.png">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:ITALY_Auth_portale_cartografico_nazionale.png</a><br>
</p>
<p>I would be very happy if, for example, dati.piemonte.it would
give OSM such a permission. I have tried to raise interest in the
matter, so far noone has joined in - maybe I just did not talk to
the right people. The upcoming gathering in Torino may be a good
place to discuss the topic.<br>
</p>
<p>I asked about the issue here:<br>
</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/12379/very-good-italian-data-discovered-help-needed-with-italian-cc-license-can-i-use-this-stuff">https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/12379/very-good-italian-data-discovered-help-needed-with-italian-cc-license-can-i-use-this-stuff</a><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOCh=5CikLkQui+dJ29gut+Q08CS9zrKa6tWN10RTK9nyVmLyw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div> perché CC0 o CC-BY [2, 3],</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
as far as I know, these restrictions would not apply to CCO data, of
course.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOCh=5CikLkQui+dJ29gut+Q08CS9zrKa6tWN10RTK9nyVmLyw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div> per lo meno via ricalco da WMS, ma talvolta anche in formato
shp. Tanto è vero che spesso il Piemonte viene indicato come
"esempio virtuoso" di pubblicazione dei dati.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Vorrei aprire una discussione sul come coordinarsi e
integrare i dati con opere successive di import e magari
verifica sul campo per poi comunicare nella lista import
l'intenzione di procedere.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
One of the reasons why I made and published my GPS map of the
Piemonte is that I wanted to show what a treasure of data is
available (I'm talking specifically of the CTRN here), and that, for
example, the hydrographic data available are far beyond what OSM can
ever hope to achieve. I have made an effort to map the hydrography
of the Val Grande National Park from a synopsis of Bing and PCN
data. When I compare the result to the CTRN (and also when I look at
my feeble efforts in the field) I am acutely aware that the CTRN
data are far superior. It's one thing mapping roads with a GPS unit
- mapping mountain streams in inaccessible terrain is quite another!
I have great respect for the CTR. I think hydrography is beyond the
normal scope of OSM and can only be achieved properly by importing
the relevant geodata.<br>
<br>
The main problem when integrating/importing CTRN data into OSM is
the lack of named geometries. This means that the toponyms are just
words fixed to points; they are not attached to the geometries. This
is because the data were initially in a CAD system and only intended
to reproduce the CTR. But there is, for example, a slightly less
detailed set of hydrographic data, where the geometries are
name-tagged, and this would be (amongst others) a perfect candidate
for import:<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.dati.piemonte.it/catalogodati/dato/1153-reticolo-idrografico-regionale-db-prior-10k-elementi-idrici.html">http://www.dati.piemonte.it/catalogodati/dato/1153-reticolo-idrografico-regionale-db-prior-10k-elementi-idrici.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOCh=5CikLkQui+dJ29gut+Q08CS9zrKa6tWN10RTK9nyVmLyw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Particolarmente interessanti sono i dati sull'idrografia e
uso del terreno ma ci sono anche layer sul costruito (invero
talvolta non troppo precisi) e vari POI (scuole, farmacie,
ospedali...). La città di Torino, con il suo WMS, mette anche a
disposizione dati molto interessanti come numeri civici
(mapparli andando in giro è un lavoraccio) e altezza in piani
degli edifici... ma purtroppo sono dati che apparentemente non
sono forniti in formato shp (magari chiedendo?)</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
So, yet again, you are perfectly right: these data are extremely
interesting. But until "permission to forgoe downstream attribution
and attribute via the web site" is obtained, even the data which are
available as WMS layer cannot be used for OSM.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOCh=5CikLkQui+dJ29gut+Q08CS9zrKa6tWN10RTK9nyVmLyw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sentitevi liberi di proporre anche altri servizi dati
integrabili. :-)</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
My proposition is therefore to try and find people in the relevant
organizations (like, the Regione Piemonte) who are able to help OSM
by granting the relevant permission. If this has already been
achieved, I apologize for the noise. I'm not in a good position to
help here, since my italian is poor and I'm not in Italy. And, of
course, there has to be an interest from the mappers to integrate
the data. Large-scale imports are a lot of work, and importing, for
example, the hydrography from dati.piemonte.it would mean that the
import data have to be somehow reconciled with the extant OSM data,
incomplete as they may be.<br>
<br>
Kay<br>
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