<font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I just want to re-clarify what I want to do with the name
convention. Maybe my first outline was a little too detailed. As far as
modifying the conventions used for the name:en name:ko_rm, I think it’s best to
leave them alone. All I simply want to do is modify the name convention by
removing the parenthesis. I don’t see what useful purpose they served since the
roman (not English) alphabet is vastly different from Hangul, and there is no
possibility that the two could be confused. Since this is Korea, the Korean
language should come first I agree, but the roman spelling is also important
for those that live here and other parts of the world that cannot read Korean.</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I have looked at other parts of the world to see how this
was handled elsewhere and I found that the practice of using parenthesis is
mostly used in China, Korea and Japan, although I found some exceptions in
China. </font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I also looked at the Middle East and North Africa. Many
places there use the Arabic script and the roman spelling together without the parenthesis.
I think the map looks a lot cleaner and in no way presents the roman spelling
as more important than the native spelling. </font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I’m not suggesting we waste time renaming every feature; just
slowly phase it in as we add new features, and somehow document that this
practice is acceptable if I can get you guys to agree that there is not a
problem with it. I’m only planning on do this for place names, mountain names
and such, not roads.</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"> </font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">This is what I’m trying to put forth:</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Current practice<span style> </span>
name=</font><span style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic","sans-serif"" lang="KO">지지리</span><span lang="KO"><font face="Calibri"> </font></span><font face="Calibri">(Jijiri)</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">My proposal<span style> </span><span style> </span>name=</font><span style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic","sans-serif"" lang="KO">지지리</span><font face="Calibri"> Jiji-ri </font></font></p>
<font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Other name tags should be kept as is.</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri">For an example, please see </font><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=35.652523040771484&lon=127.62388229370117&zoom=13"><font color="#0000ff" size="3" face="Calibri">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=35.652523040771484&lon=127.62388229370117&zoom=13</font></a></p>
<font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"> </font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Thanks everyone who took the time to give their option on
this issue. I think there is some confusion over what I actually proposed since
my first proposal wasn’t clearly written. Please let me know if you need
further clarification.</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Regards, Brian </font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:00 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:talk-ko-request@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-ko-request@openstreetmap.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<br>Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Proposal to change current naming convention (Robert Helvie)<br>
2. Re: Proposal to change current naming convention (Changwoo Ryu)<br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Robert Helvie <<a href="mailto:alimamo@gmail.com">alimamo@gmail.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org</a><br>Cc: <br>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:53:31 +0900<br>Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Proposal to change current naming convention<br>I honestly don't think the English on the street signs is just for tourists. <div><br></div><div>If it is just for Tourists, why do we still see English on signs that are nowhere near any place a typical tourist might go?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I think, just my opinion, the Korean government made a decision to create the signs for "residents" of Korea, whether those residents speak Korean, English, Farsi, or Mongolian. Obviously you can't put everything you need on the sign. The two most useful languages in their decision were likely Korean and English.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Your second quote is from the Multilingual names page which handles features that have</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><quote></span></div>
<div>different names in different languages<br><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"></quote></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">If I am correct, this convention was originally developed to deal with problems along the lines of the </span><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:16px">Senkaku / Diaoyu islands.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">Here, within Korea, I would suggest that these are not different names. It is the same name written/spoken in a different language, especially since the Hangul characters are not translated to their actual meanings.</font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">That page also covers transliteration (we currently have a name:ko_rm tag for that).Users in other countries have similar tags, but some have decided, likely for utility's sake, to include two languages in their name tag.</font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Hong_Kong" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Hong_Kong</a></font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Japan" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Japan</a></font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Haiti" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Haiti</a></font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">If you feel strongly enough that it is in the best interest of the Korean mapping community to use only Hangul on the name tag, then write it up in the Wiki and possibly, eventually, mappers may start to use that tagging system.</font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">I still stand by the last part of my message, though:</font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">> For now, I think it is OK to add the English to the name tag, especially</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">> since the Korean government has decided to add it also. It certainly makes</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">> the map more usable for a wider section of the world</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">> In the future, when map-display works better for every individual, it won't</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">> be so hard to strip the English from the name tag. A bot could likely do it</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">> more easily and quickly than you or I. When that time comes, I'll be happy</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">> to support the process.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Happy mapping.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Robert</span></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br clear="all">
</font><div><i>"We should give meaning to life, not wait for life to <br>give us meaning. "</i><br>~ unknown<br>---<br></div>
</div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Changwoo Ryu <<a href="mailto:cwryu@debian.org">cwryu@debian.org</a>><br>To: "<a href="mailto:Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org">Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:talk-ko@openstreetmap.org">talk-ko@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Cc: <br>Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:45:20 +0900<br>Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Proposal to change current naming convention<br>Let's get to the point. I mean the street signs are just for<br>
convenience of those who stay in Korea but don't speak Korean<br>
language. It does not mean the ROK government blessed writing English<br>
everywhere.<br>
<br>
OSM name tag is never such a standard-displayed text. But<br>
unfortunately it has actually been used for such purpose in a few<br>
areas including Korea. This mail thread is such an example, because<br>
someone prefer another format. And someone might prefer another format<br>
and so on.<br>
<br>
Well maybe most mappers in Korea, who are not natives and not good at<br>
reading Hangul, won't be happy with Hangul-only "name" tags. But I<br>
hope this mess be fixed. It is not consistent with most areas on the<br>
world and fixing OSM clients is "right" way than changing data.<br>
<br>
I think the wiki page should be updated if we want to keep "Korean<br>
(English)" convention, because this convention is exceptional.<br>
<br>
2013/1/22 Robert Helvie <<a href="mailto:alimamo@gmail.com">alimamo@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
> I honestly don't think the English on the street signs is just for tourists.<br>
><br>
> If it is just for Tourists, why do we still see English on signs that are<br>
> nowhere near any place a typical tourist might go?<br>
><br>
> I think, just my opinion, the Korean government made a decision to create<br>
> the signs for "residents" of Korea, whether those residents speak Korean,<br>
> English, Farsi, or Mongolian. Obviously you can't put everything you need on<br>
> the sign. The two most useful languages in their decision were likely Korean<br>
> and English.<br>
><br>
> Your second quote is from the Multilingual names page which handles features<br>
> that have<br>
><br>
> <quote><br>
> different names in different languages<br>
> </quote><br>
><br>
> If I am correct, this convention was originally developed to deal with<br>
> problems along the lines of the Senkaku / Diaoyu islands.<br>
><br>
> Here, within Korea, I would suggest that these are not different names. It<br>
> is the same name written/spoken in a different language, especially since<br>
> the Hangul characters are not translated to their actual meanings.<br>
><br>
> That page also covers transliteration (we currently have a name:ko_rm tag<br>
> for that).Users in other countries have similar tags, but some have decided,<br>
> likely for utility's sake, to include two languages in their name tag.<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Hong_Kong" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Hong_Kong</a><br>
> <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Japan" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Japan</a><br>
> <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Haiti" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Haiti</a><br>
><br>
> If you feel strongly enough that it is in the best interest of the Korean<br>
> mapping community to use only Hangul on the name tag, then write it up in<br>
> the Wiki and possibly, eventually, mappers may start to use that tagging<br>
> system.<br>
><br>
> I still stand by the last part of my message, though:<br>
><br>
>> For now, I think it is OK to add the English to the name tag, especially<br>
>> since the Korean government has decided to add it also. It certainly makes<br>
>> the map more usable for a wider section of the world<br>
>><br>
>> In the future, when map-display works better for every individual, it<br>
>> won't<br>
>> be so hard to strip the English from the name tag. A bot could likely do<br>
>> it<br>
>> more easily and quickly than you or I. When that time comes, I'll be happy<br>
>> to support the process.<br>
><br>
> Happy mapping.<br>
><br>
> Robert<br>
><br>
> "We should give meaning to life, not wait for life to<br>
> give us meaning. "<br>
> ~ unknown<br>
> ---<br>
><br>
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