<div dir="ltr">Max wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2. Many POIs in Korea are outdated and not
valid any more. In the problematic import, there are all kinds of hospitals and
clinics that are closed by now. Editing those would "mark them like
new" and it would not be visible immedately that they might not be valid
any more</span></p></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><font size="2"><span style="font-family:굴림" lang="EN-US"><br></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">Don’t agree. First, age or last modified time of a POI don’t represent
correctness of the POI. Second, if the importing was problematic, then we
should revert the problematic importing rather than keep them without
modification.</font></span></p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">
</font></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2"> </font></span></p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">
</font></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">No common renderer “mark them like new” or marks POI as maybe-incorrect
base on their age or last modified time. It is information behind map. As well
as, normal user want to know point-of-interest, not history of
point-of-interest. Even an expert user want to see history, but he/she can
immediate identify the last change is mechanical renaming because there must be
a comment.</font></span></p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">
</font></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2"> </font></span></p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">
</font></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">As a mapper, I modified POIs because I knew information of the POIs were
incorrect.</font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2"></font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="EN-US">Latest confirmed date(?) or something like
that can be useful for users, however it must exist as a separate information if
needed. We cannot know such information from history of POI itself and should
not.</span></font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font size="2">
</font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span></p></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-04 21:54 GMT+09:00 느림보 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nrimbo@gmail.com" target="_blank">nrimbo@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림" lang="EN-US">You are right. For the name of roads in South Korea, Romanization has
precedence over translation. It is defined in </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림">공공 용어의 영어 번역
및 표기 지침<span lang="EN-US"> (</span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림" lang="EN">English translation and marking instructions of public terms</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림" lang="EN-US">, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림" lang="EN"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림" lang="EN-US"><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-H3vA9-nLFkQWNLYjJsN00tRG8/view?usp=sharing" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">https://drive.google.com/<wbr>file/d/0B-H3vA9-<wbr>nLFkQWNLYjJsN00tRG8/view?usp=<wbr>sharing</span></a>).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal;word-break:keep-all" align="left"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:굴림" lang="EN-US">Korean Government adopted street-based address. For proper working as
Address, there should be minimum differences between written forms and it
should be easy to convert between them. If translation of road name is allowed,
it will hurt address system of South Korea, because there can be lots of
alternatives for translation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Translation vs. Romanization -- they should be made case-by-case, but
for the name of road, I think proper one is Romanization. ‘name:en’ can exist
but it should has the same value as ‘name:ko_rm.’</span></p>
<div><span lang="EN-US"><br><br></span></div></div></div><div><div class="h5"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><span lang="EN-US"><br><br></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-04 21:16 GMT+09:00 Robert Helvie <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alimamo@gmail.com" target="_blank">alimamo@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">The ideas here are good, but I have a problem with the idea that the Korean names "should" be translated.<div><br><div>I have come across numerous examples where a street name COULD be translated, for example something like "대학로" could be translated to "University street"; however, the English on the actual street sign is not translated and says "Daehak-ro". </div><div>In a situation like this, shouldn't the name:en tag still exist and be "Daehak-ro"? In this case, the name:ko_rm=romanized would be the same, but certainly not in all cases.</div></div><div><br></div><div>There is at least one service I know of that uses the name:en tag to create maps using OSM data. And, I expect future renderers will need to access specific language tags when things get to the point where you can choose a language and have the map rendered on the fly in your language.</div><div><br></div><div>If you just start translating all street names and POI names, then anyone using an English rendered map to find places in Korea is going to have a pretty hard time unless they speak Korean. Sure, it will obviously take time to get the actual signage into OSM, but I think that route is better than just translating things and entering a lot of unrepresentative data.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Robert</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443gmail_signature"><i>"We should give meaning to life, not wait for life to <br>give us meaning. "</i><br>~ unknown<br>---<br></div></div><div><div class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-h5">
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 8:45 PM, 느림보 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nrimbo@gmail.com" target="_blank">nrimbo@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It might be useful for foreigners to have combination
name as </span>한국어<span lang="EN-US"> (English). However, as a local mapper I don’t
want see (English) because they don’t give additional information to Korean
people, as well as they block displaying of other POIs by taking additional space.
To make matters worse, English name is longer than original Korean name,
generally.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Andrew said that “…as an English speaker
living in Korea it is very useful for me…”. So, I looked after several online
services and OsmAnd to see how they looks. In most cases, they are using local
name (name tag) only. MapQuest prefer English than local name and OsmAnd has
function override language, but they don’t give two languages, too.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I also found two sites displaying two
languages (Max already introduced one of them.) They display Korean name and ‘foreign
name’ line-by-line. For me, it is more readable than wrapping English name by
parenthesis and looks like more proper way handling name tags.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10&lat=49.99303&lon=18.83157&layers=B000TT" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.de/k<wbr>arte.html?zoom=10&lat=49.99303<wbr>&lon=18.83157&layers=B000TT</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://maps.sputnik.ru/?lat=37.536410466671626&lng=127.00847625732423&zoom=12" target="_blank">http://maps.sputnik.ru/?lat=37<wbr>.536410466671626&lng=127.00847<wbr>625732423&zoom=12</a></span></p><span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">name=</span>한국어<span lang="EN-US"> and
name:ko=</span>한국어<span lang="EN-US"> are kind of redudnant, but it is probably
neccessary to help transitioning. Also it is the same way in Japan.</span></p></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p></span><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Agree, I hesitated making duplicated data
at the first time but I accepted this rule for that reason. It looks like that
it is accepted globally. More than half of 20 busiest airports have duplicated
name tags.</span></p><span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ko_rm should actually be renamed in bulk to
ko-Latn, possibly in cooperation and discussion with the japanese community who
have the same problem with ja_rm that should be ja-Latn</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">See here: <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org<wbr>/wiki/Names#Localization</a><br>
the next paragraph in this wiki page is interesting too. We should avoid
transliterations. According to this rule 90% of the name:ko_rm and name:en tags
should go.</span></p></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p></span><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I think Romanized name is useful when the
name doesn’t have meaning part. If a name doesn’t have meaning part, then there
will be no proper translated name, too. In this case, only ko-Latn tag (or
ko_rm) holds foreigner friendly characters properly. In this reason, I don’t
hesitate to add ko-Latn to administrative units. However, I think Romanization should
be avoided if a name has meaning part. (I already expressed my opinion in
previous thread, but again…)</span></p>
<p class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443m_1580517614708493044gmail-MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:38pt"><span lang="EN-US"><span>1)<span style="font:7pt "times new roman"">
</span></span></span><span lang="EN-US">Romanization of Korean is not
simple transliteration. It is difficult to guarantee correctness of Romanized
name. First principle of Romanization is “Romanization is based on standard
Korean pronunciation.” Finding proper pronunciation of Korean words is
difficult job even native Koreans. As well as, “Proper names such as personal
names and those of companies may continue to be written as they have been
previously.” Only owner of the property can give proper Romanized name.<br>
See <a href="http://www.korean.go.kr/front_eng/roman/roman_01.do" target="_blank">http://www.korean.go.kr/front_<wbr>eng/roman/roman_01.do</a></span></p>
<p class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443m_1580517614708493044gmail-MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:38pt"><span lang="EN-US"><span>2)<span style="font:7pt "times new roman"">
</span></span></span><span lang="EN-US">Even it is my personal experiment,
translated name is readable than Romanized name. I think it is better to
encourage translate rather than Romanize.</span></p>
</div><div class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443HOEnZb"><div class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-04 18:09 GMT+09:00 Max <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:abonnements@revolwear.com" target="_blank">abonnements@revolwear.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span>On 2017년 03월 04일 09:39, Andrew Errington wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I agree that name tagging should be fixed, but I don't agree that we<br>
have a solution yet.<br>
</blockquote></span>
Indeed<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Firstly, name=* might not be in Korean language. I can give several<br>
examples where the name of something in Korea (for example, a shop, or a<br>
restaurant) is in Chinese, English, or French. So, I think we should<br>
not insist that name=* must always be Korean.<br>
</blockquote></span>
Very good point.<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
However, it is useful to make a record of the Korean name in name:ko=*<br>
even if it is the same as name=*. The reason for this is so that we can<br>
make a multilingual map.<br>
</blockquote></span>
Agreed<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I agree that if name=* is a combination of "Korean (English)" it should<br>
be changed, but as an English speaker living in Korea it is very useful<br>
for me, so I am reluctant to make that change. And if it's useful for<br>
me, it is probably useful for other people.<br>
</blockquote></span>
While I generally sympathize, I think this is a bit of an colonialzing view onto Korea. Hell would break loose if someone would think it's appropriate to tag every item in the states with Korean or Arabic transcriptions.<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
This brings me to another important point, we must think of the people<br>
who will be using the data. We must provide data which is properly<br>
tagged so that the map renderer can choose the correct tag to label<br>
every road or street or building for the language chosen by the user. I<br>
think the reason why name=* was a combination of "Korean (English)" was<br>
because we didn't have renderers that could render in different<br>
languages. Maybe we still don't, but we should be thinking of the<br>
future, as well as the present.<br>
</blockquote></span>
That's very true. I hope these multilingual renderers will appear soon, so we have one less reason to slow down the transition.<br>
Maybe an intermediate solution would be to have a Korean render style? <a href="http://openstreetmap.kr" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openstreetmap.kr</a> ? just like the german style at <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.de/k<wbr>arte.html</a><span class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443m_1580517614708493044im m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443m_1580517614708493044HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I think we have to have a full discussion before you run your automated<br>
script. We should also remember that there is no urgency, and we should<br>
not be hasty.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span><div class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443m_1580517614708493044HOEnZb"><div class="m_2151526955067240438gmail-m_-5935349319127709443m_1580517614708493044h5">
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