<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.Stile-pote21
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:371223747;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:16050314 1963391084 605683715 605683717 605683713 605683715 605683717 605683713 605683715 605683717;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-start-at:0;
mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:-;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l1
{mso-list-id:496849227;
mso-list-template-ids:-309939074;}
@list l1:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l1:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l1:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="SR-LATN-RS" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I’m using both tools for more than 10 days now, and here’s some feedbacks:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://restrictions.morbz.de/">https://restrictions.morbz.de/</a></span><o:p></o:p></li><ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">the tool has vivid colors and it is not so clean, so it is hard to understand every single what is the problem with the turn restriction.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">Also, I’m not sure if it works on some local OSM drop, or it uses live data thru Overpass query. I think it is local OSM drop, since I have fixed some of the turn restrictions, but these
are still visible in the app.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">Anyway, there are some probably false positives which I’m not able to figure out what is the problem. For example
<a href="https://restrictions.morbz.de/#19/-41.28779/174.77909">this turn restriction</a> is marked as Warning, but everything seems to be clear.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://ahorn.lima-city.de/tr/">https://ahorn.lima-city.de/tr/</a></span><o:p></o:p></li><ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">I have found this tool more handy. It has a really handy b&w background so you can easily recognize all colored turn restrictions. Interface helps you to understand all Warnings and Errors
easily.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">Just very few of Warnings were false positives (such as deviation is not too high/large to recognize as No U turn – app suggesting to apply No Right turn).</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">Great thing is that you can disable Turn restrictions without issues. It makes everything truly nice and clean.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">There are three negative sides:</span><o:p></o:p></li><ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="square">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level3 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">First, which bothers me a lot, is that zoom level needs to be 14 or higher. I have 2K resolution and I have found it really frustrating when you have to wait to load Overpass each time
for a “small” area. Also I do not know if I have missed some of the turn restrictions with issues, since maybe I haven’t loaded some regions. It is a really great feature to work on live data, but it would be really nice to have a possibility to see all issues
at once for one country. By my opinion, it would be nice to have at least zoom level 10, if it is hard to implement turn restriction list for whole country.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level3 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">There’s no possibility to mark these very few as false positives. It would be really neat to see this feature as well.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level3 lfo2"><span lang="EN-US">If there is an orphan turn restriction (‘from’ and ‘to’ members are missing), you will have displayed error, but you won’t have a representation on the map. You have manually download
all type=restriction for given area and to manually remove it from JOSM.<br>
</span><img border="0" width="243" height="87" style="width:2.5312in;height:.9062in" id="Slika_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D67242.F20E4DC0"><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I hope that I have closed all turn restrictions that had some kind of issues across New Zealand, but (as I said) maybe I have intentionally missed some region. I hope provided feedback can be useful for everyone.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Nemanja</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Kiel Hurley <kielhurley@gmail.com>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eliot Blennerhassett <eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz><br>
<b>Cc:</b> talk-nz@openstreetmap.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [Talk-nz] Turn restrictions rabbithole<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If you do remove any turn restrictions using iD, please use the Turn Restrictions widget rather than deleting the turn restriction relation from the node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I've noticed if the relation is deleted from the node, the relation still exists but without a "via", which causes an error (but doesn't appear to be shown as one in iD).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">JOSM is able to detect them as errors, and from there the no-longer-needed relations can be deleted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 10:38, Eliot Blennerhassett <<a href="mailto:eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz">eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now I've seen these restrictions visualizers...<br>
<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fahorn.lima-city.de%2Ftr%2F%3Fzoom%3D18%26lat%3D-43.553894%26lon%3D172.635211%26layer%3DGrayscale%26overlays%3DTTT&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681095588&sdata=r%2B%2FfXLxdEzxCO6mQAxr7vgtVBvDoHCE9ogJ4two8rjI%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://ahorn.lima-city.de/tr/?zoom=18&lat=-43.553894&lon=172.635211&layer=Grayscale&overlays=TTT</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frestrictions.morbz.de%2F%2317%2F-43.55386%2F172.63474&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681105582&sdata=KwnTvuRT4tuVgR27n0JFJp5BLq4iQE2hCmNPiCYr1aU%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://restrictions.morbz.de/#17/-43.55386/172.63474</a><br>
<br>
I'm seeing a huge proliferation of labelling every way of a junction<br>
with what I call a "Self No U-turn" i.e. the from and to members are the<br>
same segment.<br>
<br>
See for example this area:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fahorn.lima-city.de%2Ftr%2F%3Fzoom%3D18%26lat%3D-43.553894%26lon%3D172.635211%26layer%3DGrayscale%26overlays%3DTTT&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681105582&sdata=Aptw9JrFiN2dmGEvBrDN9M09W%2FXqaxSaCeywIjvaio4%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://ahorn.lima-city.de/tr/?zoom=18&lat=-43.553894&lon=172.635211&layer=Grayscale&overlays=TTT</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frestrictions.morbz.de%2F%2317%2F-43.55386%2F172.63474&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681115576&sdata=OXtdcLKogqhaUTrliLXIbQtmjYXidgXOYm4trRjGfvI%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://restrictions.morbz.de/#17/-43.55386/172.63474</a><br>
<br>
If you look at<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FRelation%3Arestriction%23Tags&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681115576&sdata=chmA1X7Uprr24MB0B5iZTYKcKnJ%2FntFimKc8LFliCOs%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction#Tags</a>,
it says<br>
"*to add a no_u_turn restriction relation seems only useful if<br>
from-member and to-member are different way objects"<br>
<br>
So I think all these no-U that I'm seeing are useless, and in some cases<br>
actually erroneous e.g. when the T junction is between a driveway and a<br>
road it is not prohibited to do a U turn on the road. And they make it<br>
harder to review actual turn restrictions.<br>
<br>
<br>
I've deleted a bunch, but I'm interested if anyone else has any opinion<br>
on this.<br>
<br>
<br>
No-U-turn where the From and To members are different ways is of course<br>
still valid e.g.<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Frelation%2F9027919&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681125570&sdata=W9FzMQDl9RxXnDetGcHDrV3Xwa35N9i9D%2BMWZGmoAww%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/9027919</a><br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Frelation%2F5391722&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681125570&sdata=ByTOqDonY%2BHnIUn6wN5bJOxqXXCuUD%2FGPhf4%2BlpV8KI%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5391722</a><br>
<br>
--<br>
Eliot<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-nz mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.openstreetmap.org%2Flistinfo%2Ftalk-nz&data=02%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C39c1fae2aa094db448f308d8392032ee%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637322158681135563&sdata=1TxZ8qamn4l6t6FLyglZyW3Yve8bkJR2C0wqUXAZEc8%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>