<div dir="ltr">The "name" page mentions that "name" should be the primary name. I would argue that if the national government, regional government, district government, businesses, and other organizations use the official name, it is de facto the primary name, even if a road sign says something else. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 8:53 PM <<a href="mailto:talk-nz-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-nz-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-nz mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Place names (Mike Kittridge)<br>
2. Re: Place names (Rob Alley)<br>
3. Re: Place names (Eliot Blennerhassett)<br>
4. Re: Place names (Mike Kittridge)<br>
5. Re: Place names (Eliot Blennerhassett)<br>
6. Re: Place names (Lynn Rawiri)<br>
<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:17:26 +1300<br>
From: Mike Kittridge <<a href="mailto:mgkittridge@gmail.com" target="_blank">mgkittridge@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Eliot Blennerhassett <<a href="mailto:eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>><br>
Cc: Timoth?e Duhamel <<a href="mailto:timothee.duhamel@gmail.com" target="_blank">timothee.duhamel@gmail.com</a>>, Kyle Hensel<br>
<<a href="mailto:K.y.l.e@outlook.co.nz" target="_blank">K.y.l.e@outlook.co.nz</a>>, talk-nz <<a href="mailto:talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAPeuOrXVmhUop6u1_Sr2iG34rASVdK%2BYfSJMGMiLCcJy88U_VA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAPeuOrXVmhUop6u1_Sr2iG34rASVdK+YfSJMGMiLCcJy88U_VA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I agree that the tag should be the official name according to the<br>
Gazetteer. Road signs can be easily be wrong.<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:40 PM Eliot Blennerhassett <<br>
<a href="mailto:eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 10/11/21 12:43, Timoth?e Duhamel wrote:<br>
> > Here is one example of the tuhot? edit warring:<br>
> <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/112892966" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/112892966</a> <<br>
> <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/112892966" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/112892966</a>><br>
> ><br>
> > The argument used is that the signage on the ground should be the<br>
> "source of truth". This is a defensible position, but, as stated by the DWG<br>
> rep in that changeset, ultimately it is up to the local community (us? this<br>
> mailing list?) to set guidelines on name tag usage.<br>
><br>
> So, other 80 or so members of this list, do you agree/disagree/abstain?<br>
><br>
> > I agree with everyone else so far, that we should include tuhot? on the<br>
> name tag (where the name is gazetted as such) even when signage on the<br>
> ground may commonly exclude the macron.<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Talk-nz mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz</a><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:19:07 +1300<br>
From: Rob Alley <<a href="mailto:alley.rob@gmail.com" target="_blank">alley.rob@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAJDAdJO8hWu8JuEs=<a href="mailto:rf52jv98h2V-d7jE3iUfRwArGrvLVvmqA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">rf52jv98h2V-d7jE3iUfRwArGrvLVvmqA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 at 13:40, Eliot Blennerhassett <<br>
<a href="mailto:eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
> So, other 80 or so members of this list, do you agree/disagree/abstain?<br>
><br>
> > I agree with everyone else so far, that we should include tuhot? on the<br>
> name tag (where the name is gazetted as such) even when signage on the<br>
> ground may commonly exclude the macron.<br>
><br>
><br>
Another vote for including macrons etc. There appear to be a few editors<br>
with an axe to grind against these where their only edits appear to be<br>
removing macrons. If we get consensus here it can be documented on the NZ<br>
specific wiki pages and take precedence of the general name guidelines on<br>
the wiki that they seem to constantly refer to.<br>
<br>
Rob.<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
NIL ILLEGITIMUM CARBORUNDUM<br>
Egotism is the anaesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity. - Frank Leahy<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:22:26 +1300<br>
From: Eliot Blennerhassett <<a href="mailto:eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>><br>
To: Andy Townsend <<a href="mailto:ajt1047@gmail.com" target="_blank">ajt1047@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:4c686996-96cd-9b39-221c-ad70759ad71b@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">4c686996-96cd-9b39-221c-ad70759ad71b@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>><br>
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<br>
On 10/11/21 14:01, Andy Townsend wrote:<br>
> (apologies for posting out of the existing thread; I've just subscribed to the list)<br>
> <br>
> (quoting Timoth?e Duhamel)<br>
> <br>
> > but, as stated by the DWG rep in<br>
> > that changeset, ultimately it is up to the local community (us? this<br>
> > mailing list?) to set guidelines on name tag usage.<br>
> <br>
> Yes, that's you and everyone in this community!<br>
> <br>
> Thanks for the comments so far, and thanks for Michael for raising it here.? I'd slightly take issue with "DWG is unwilling to step in do anything" - I've been suggesting a discussion somewhere like here for at least a month now, and a community decision is a far better option than us just choosing to enforce one option or another.<br>
> <br>
> For completeness, I've asked the participants in the tit-for-tat edits at <a href="http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=248764278" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=248764278</a> to improve the way that they map in a few ways (see <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/5436" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/5436</a> and <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/5437" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/5437</a> ).<br>
<br>
For the record, user "aotearoa86" has an edit history that is very similar to "kiwiAs", e.g.<br>
<br>
<br>
kiwiAs - "name" is for the common 'on the ground' (signposted) spelling; use "official_name" for "Matat?"<br>
aotearoa86 - "name" is for the common 'on the ground' (signposted) spelling; use "official_name" for "?taki Beach"<br>
<br>
this appears to be either coordinated program of macron removal, or use of multiple accounts.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Eliot<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:35:21 +1300<br>
From: Mike Kittridge <<a href="mailto:mgkittridge@gmail.com" target="_blank">mgkittridge@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Rob Alley <<a href="mailto:alley.rob@gmail.com" target="_blank">alley.rob@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: talk-nz <<a href="mailto:talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAPeuOrWHpQCGpDZ2v=Uxd6XbGs2v=<a href="mailto:fppF5MA18tCj1Le-aFYuw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">fppF5MA18tCj1Le-aFYuw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
well...now that I'm actually looking at the wiki page in more detail...it<br>
really does seem to emphasize that the "name" tag should be what's "on the<br>
ground".<br>
I take back what I said before...reluctantly...because I would have<br>
preferred it be the official name according to the gazetteer, but there is<br>
an "official_name" tag that can be used for that purpose.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name</a><br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 2:21 PM Rob Alley <<a href="mailto:alley.rob@gmail.com" target="_blank">alley.rob@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 at 13:40, Eliot Blennerhassett <<br>
> <a href="mailto:eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> So, other 80 or so members of this list, do you agree/disagree/abstain?<br>
>><br>
>> > I agree with everyone else so far, that we should include tuhot? on the<br>
>> name tag (where the name is gazetted as such) even when signage on the<br>
>> ground may commonly exclude the macron.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
> Another vote for including macrons etc. There appear to be a few editors<br>
> with an axe to grind against these where their only edits appear to be<br>
> removing macrons. If we get consensus here it can be documented on the NZ<br>
> specific wiki pages and take precedence of the general name guidelines on<br>
> the wiki that they seem to constantly refer to.<br>
><br>
> Rob.<br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> NIL ILLEGITIMUM CARBORUNDUM<br>
> Egotism is the anaesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity. - Frank Leahy<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Talk-nz mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz</a><br>
><br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:44:42 +1300<br>
From: Eliot Blennerhassett <<a href="mailto:eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">eliot@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>><br>
To: Mike Kittridge <<a href="mailto:mgkittridge@gmail.com" target="_blank">mgkittridge@gmail.com</a>>, Rob Alley<br>
<<a href="mailto:alley.rob@gmail.com" target="_blank">alley.rob@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: talk-nz <<a href="mailto:talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:9486c4ce-3eec-5af0-82a2-534956b0455a@blennerhassett.gen.nz" target="_blank">9486c4ce-3eec-5af0-82a2-534956b0455a@blennerhassett.gen.nz</a>><br>
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<br>
<br>
On 10/11/21 14:35, Mike Kittridge wrote:<br>
> well...now that I'm actually looking at the wiki page in more detail...it really does seem to emphasize that the "name" tag should be what's "on the ground".<br>
> I take back what I said before...reluctantly...because I would have preferred it be the official name according to the gazetteer, but there is an "official_name" tag that can be used for that purpose.<br>
<br>
Note that "on the ground" means "whatever name, designation, etc are used by the people on the ground at that location".<br>
It doesn't mean "what is written on a signpost"<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Having said that, nitpicking over the meanings of words in the guidelines won't resolve this.<br>
The NZ community can still decide that the names with macrons per the gazetteer are the ones to go in "name".<br>
I am still in favour of this.<br>
<br>
I read the OTG rule as being more about avoiding confusion, and editwars in disputed territories.<br>
It is not as if the name with a macron is going to create confusion in people using the map to find a place.<br>
"I'm looking for the turnoff to ?karito, but that sign says Okarito so I'd better keep driving"?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As Andy Townsend said "a community decision is a far better option than us just choosing to enforce one option or another.<br>
<br>
I have little time for the no-macron side given that they have zero history of contributing *anything* to the<br>
NZ map apart from deleting macrons from names, and then citing "the rules" as a reason why it is justified.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Eliot<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:50:34 +1300<br>
From: Lynn Rawiri <<a href="mailto:lynnoftawa@livekiwi.com" target="_blank">lynnoftawa@livekiwi.com</a>><br>
To: talk-nz <<a href="mailto:talk-nz@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-nz@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:378B6FC6-600E-48A7-8640-B7C5F19B86A8@livekiwi.com" target="_blank">378B6FC6-600E-48A7-8640-B7C5F19B86A8@livekiwi.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br>
<br>
(Just noticing this discussion?)<br>
<br>
>From what I can tell, we have usually followed the OSM?s definition of the ?name? tag - i.e.<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name</a><br>
and have used ?name? for the NZTA?s signposted name, and ?official_name? for the LINZ ?official name? (should that be different).<br>
<br>
I think that we should continue to use ?name? as OSM has defined it - the situation "on the ground? - and not try to repurpose it.<br>
<br>
Remember that OSM is intended to be a resource that?s useful for real people (including tourists visiting New Zealand). If the macronned spelling is almost never seen in signs that people see in the town itself (as is the case for most of these towns, with a few exceptions, like ?Taup??), then we?re doing people a disservice by using a spelling in ?name? that people will almost never see in the town. But we do have another tag - ?official_name? - that?s perfectly suited for that purpose.<br>
<br>
LynnOfTawa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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End of Talk-nz Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4<br>
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</blockquote></div>