<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 9 December 2010 23:40, Michael von Glasow <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael@vonglasow.com">michael@vonglasow.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><div class="im">
On 12/09/2010 01:31 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<br><br>
There is the issue of "multiple relations per line" in oxomoa,
which in my opinion is a total misfit. There are "roles" in
relations, and different variants of a route can be put there. </blockquote></div>
My previous post to this list contains an example of what you may
encounter in real life. The case of a telescope line may be
representable in a single relation, but I really do not know how to
express in a single relation that some courses skip part of the
route (the market example) and follow another (including some
different stops)</div></blockquote><div><br>IMHO You don't. OSM shows where the line passes regularly, and not how it goes in detail. The point of bus lines on OSM is not to replace timetables and programs like Hafas, but to show people where they can take a bus, which passes regularly (whatever that means). For this purpose I personally do not map for example schoolbus lines (even though legally they are open to all passengers). <br>
<br>For me personally it is important to see if there is a bus line in the area, and how's the bus stop called. Then I connect to hafas by my telephone and find the timetable. It works in practice. <br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> If you have a decent way of expressing
that in a single relation, please do share it here - I'd happily
adopt that if only someone suggests a satisfactory solution to the
issue. <br></div></blockquote><div><br>In case of a telescope line there is no problem - simply ignore the fact that some runs (Kurse? in German) end earlier. In case of a line which alternates between two different paths, my idea is to add "a" and "b" to the roles (or "forward_a" and "forward_b", but again, this is not so crucial, because for the user the info is clear: there's a bus line. The user doesn't care that the same bus line goes another path, s/he sees this line. If the bus passes some place less often than every 2 hours, then I don't put the line on OSM at all, because what's the use? <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><div class="im">
<blockquote type="cite">Two, or more, relations per line is not only "illegal"
(clearly against the principle, as it was stated by its creators),
but also hell to administer, and JOSM-limited.</blockquote></div>
Are you referring to the master relation which contains the
relations for the route variants? In fact I don't use them in Milan</div></blockquote><div><br>Yes. <br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
(in Munich it seems common practice and I follow that), and as of
today renderers seem to be fine even without it. Take the following
example:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch-line?network=SITAM&ref=69&style=padua" target="_blank">http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch-line?network=SITAM&ref=69&style=padua</a><br>
<br>
This line is made up of four relations (two variants with one
relation for each direction),</div></blockquote><div><br>That's not much different from what I deal with, and as of today I ignored different variants out of the lack of a sensible solution (oxomoa not being one), and the world has not collapsed. The lines I mapped appear on <a href="http://xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de">öpnvkarte.de</a>, the only problem being <a href="http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch-line?network=SITAM&ref=69&style=padua" target="_blank">http://78.46.81.38/</a> service doesn't work. But again, I am almost alone in the area, and I have more important issues to address, such as adding bus stops to relations. <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> and OSM Server Side Script manages to
put them together based on their ref and network tags. <br></div></blockquote><div><br>And this is the way to go: leave the mess to be cleaned by scripts, not humans. The author of önpvkarte managed to get all the data and make sense of it. It should be middleware, not humans, which would deal with details such as telescope or spoon lines (with a loop instead of a terminus).<br>
</div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
Editor support, as Dominik writes, I would not overestimate. JOSM
may be complex, but maintaining public transportation routes is
complex on itself</div></blockquote><div><br>This is not a reason to limit it to one editor. <br></div><div></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><div class="im"><br>
<blockquote type="cite"> Potlatch and Merkaartor account for 2/3 edits
together. <br>
</blockquote></div>
Now this does surprise me - I would have expected a higher "market
share" for JOSM. </div></blockquote><div><br>Really? Let's see: <br>* ugly interface<br>* more difficult that the others<br>* written in Java, which requires >100MB installation<br><br>None of the above bother me, but I can see why some people won't try it. Remember, mappers are not always geeks. We are. <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">If you have the figures at hand, it would be
interesting to find out how many of the people who edit public
transportation data use JOSM vs. other editors.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>I can tell you what I do in JOSM: adding lines to a mother relation. All other things are done in Potlatch. I don't even know how to import gpx to JOSM. <br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
Then again - if other editors do not support all that's possible, we
should also consider adapting the editors to support the tagging
scheme we have in mind rather than adapting the tagging scheme to
what is supported by all editors.<br></div></blockquote><div style=""><br>What is important for me is that Potlatch does well with mapping bus lines. It doesn't even need any extensions for it. <br></div><br clear="all">
</div><br>-- <br>Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, <br><br>Michał Borsuk<br>