<html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">So can the proposal build
on existing highway=bus_stop? On reason for this is a number of cites
have imported their bus stops from Open Data which ensures
completeness. ie all the bus stops in the city are present and
occasionally they are reimported to catch any new bus stops or removal
of others. Changing from bus stops means everyone who does this sort of
import has to reconfigure their import system and doing that will be
awkward and may lead to a bus stop being mapped twice.<br>
<br>
Also there are existing tutorials on how to map a bus stop. Many will
be local so finding them to correct them will be a major problem.<br>
<br>
Thoughts?<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Cheerio John<br>
<br>
<span>Dave F via Talk-transit wrote on 2019-05-04 10:53 AM:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d5fc1f02-650a-6a3a-ce06-390b58af7d2a@btinternet.com">Hi
<br>
<br>
On 04/05/2019 11:12, Wiklund Johan wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">At least in Norway, highway=bus_stop is a free
floating node representing the location of a stop,
<br></blockquote>
<br>
public_transport=platform is also 'free floating'.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">not the geometry of a stop.
<br></blockquote>
<br>
147 platforms are nodes.
<br>
<br>
In the examples of your overpass public_transport=platform doesn't
represent the geometry of a stop, just arbitrary areas of pavement
adjacent to bus stop poles. Other furniture maybe present (shelter,
bench etc) but they can either be added as extra tags to the more
abundant highway=bus_stop or, preferably, as separate items.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I should also say that platforms are abundant
in Norway, especially in the Oslo region where consistent mapping is in
place. <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/IGK">http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/IGK</a>
<br></blockquote>
<br>
There are 300 more bus stops than platforms
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/IHi">http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/IHi</a>
<br>
<br>
Bus stops can be tagged to provide the same data. Think of the time
&
effort saved if they'd been utilised.
<br>
<br>
Just because something was mapped incorrectly in the past it doesn't
mean it should continue. It should be corrected to improve the database
Please remember this thread (& others) were started in an attempt to
"simplified public transportation scheme". To achieve that, remapping
&
code rewriting will have to occur.
<br>
<br>
PS This one doesn't look right:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/361309229">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/361309229</a>
<br>
<br>
Cheers
<br>
DaveF
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>/Johan
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Dave F via Talk-transit <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-transit@openstreetmap.org"><talk-transit@openstreetmap.org></a>
<br>Sent: fredag 3. mai 2019 23.56
<br>To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:talk-transit@openstreetmap.org">talk-transit@openstreetmap.org</a>
<br>Cc: Dave F <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davefoxfac63@btinternet.com"><davefoxfac63@btinternet.com></a>
<br>Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Ideas for a simplified public
transportation scheme
<br>
<br>Hi Johan
<br>
<br>Is there reason it can't use highway=bus_stop,& equivalents for
trams etc, which were already in the database & more abundant than
'platform'?
<br>
<br>DaveF
<br>
<br>On 03/05/2019 21:48, Wiklund Johan wrote:
<br><blockquote type="cite">In response to:
<br><blockquote type="cite">Please show me a router which uses platforms
as I'm struggling to see the benefits atm.
<br></blockquote>And:
<br>
<br><blockquote type="cite">This reinforces my point about
misappropriation of tags. A platform is a physical construction higher
than the surrounding ground to allow easier boarding.
<br>
<br>A platform:
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/04/76/30/4763016_2416f5ee.jpg">https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/04/76/30/4763016_2416f5ee.jpg</a>
<br>
<br>Not a platform:
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/90/a0/3890a0f451e1a6900d174b29125b3">https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/90/a0/3890a0f451e1a6900d174b29125b3</a>
<br>c80.jpg
<br></blockquote>We use public_transport=platform abundantly in routing
with OTP, and it is a key component in specifying the origin of walk
links. We use it as an area, or a way. We need these to make direct
contact between our stops (separate database) and the foot-routing
network of OSM.
<br>
<br>I further see no problem in extending the usage of the platform
(public_transport=platform) to any waiting area for public transport. To
force correct word description would force one to use terms like
"street_waiting_area" "dirt_pit", "ditch" or "sidewalk" which would only
be hairsplitting. If the usage of the word platform is
misappropriation, I think it is the wording in the scheme that is too
narrowly defined, rather than the widespread usage being wrong.
<br>
<br>However, don’t get me wrong. I don’t really care what it's called as
long as there is an area which can represent where passengers wait, and
to which public transport vehicles arrive. This is of course the needs
of our own journey planner, and we have no stake in the wider public
transport scheme of OSM. I just wanted to show that there are indeed
routers which use the platforms, and have great emphasis on their usage.
<br>
<br>In case you were wondering which router I'm talking about:
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en-tur.no/">https://en-tur.no/</a> (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/entur/opentripplanner">https://github.com/entur/opentripplanner</a>)
<br>
<br>Sincerely (and possibly missing a few points because I haven't been
<br>reading the whole discussion),
<br>
<br>Johan Wiklund
<br>Entur
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Dave F via Talk-transit <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-transit@openstreetmap.org"><talk-transit@openstreetmap.org></a>
<br>Sent: fredag 3. mai 2019 19.09
<br>To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-transit@openstreetmap.org"><talk-transit@openstreetmap.org></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com">selfishseahorse@gmail.com</a>
<br>Cc: Dave F <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davefoxfac63@btinternet.com"><davefoxfac63@btinternet.com></a>
<br>Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Ideas for a simplified public
<br>transportation scheme
<br>
<br>Hi
<br>
<br>(This amalgamates replies to Markus's points in his last post.)
<br>
<br>On 30/04/2019 18:34, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
<br><blockquote type="cite">A platform is where people wait to board; if
they stand at a pole
<br>(typical for buses), then the pole is logically the platform.
<br></blockquote>This reinforces my point about misappropriation of
tags. A platform is a physical construction higher than the surrounding
ground to allow easier boarding.
<br>
<br>A platform:
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/04/76/30/4763016_2416f5ee.jpg">https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/04/76/30/4763016_2416f5ee.jpg</a>
<br>
<br>Not a platform:
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/90/a0/3890a0f451e1a6900d174b29125b3c">https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/90/a0/3890a0f451e1a6900d174b29125b3c</a>
<br>80.jpg
<br>
<br>If (& I believe it's a big if), a separate tag is required to as
you & Markus suggest, one with a unique, non-confusing value should
be used.
<br>
<br>Many public_transport=platform are tagged on the same node as
highway=bus_stop. They have no raised construction Therefore they're
redundant - routing can use the bus stop tag for the "stop node beside
the road" as Markus described it.:
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/469760546#map=19/51.51026/-0.18630">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/469760546#map=19/51.51026/-0.18630</a>
<br>
<br>
<br><blockquote type="cite">That's easily distinguished from large
platforms because it's a node
<br>rather than a way/area.
<br></blockquote>Not really. To save time, contributors occasionally
combine tags onto a single object: litter_bins, shelters, benches
*&* raised platforms in the case of bus stops. I'm not saying it's
the correct/best way to map, but it happens.
<br>
<br><blockquote type="cite">I think the idea was that nobody _could_
build routers with the data
<br>we had, which was inconsistently tagged between areas and sometimes
<br>even between mappers in the same area.
<br></blockquote>This maybe true, but as I point out in my previous
post, adding extra tags only masks the problems. The "inconsistencies"
should be corrected.
<br>
<br><blockquote type="cite">If you're trying to construct a route that
involves walking to a bus
<br>stop, riding the bus to another stop, and then walking some more,
<br>then you need a linkage connecting the bus route (using stop
<br>positions) with the walkways (using platforms). I'm not saying
<br>that's the only way to do it, but it's the only way that was
proposed.
<br></blockquote>Do you have an example as I'm unsure what you mean by
'walkways' and platforms are disconnected from the bus routes, as are
bus stops, so, as I said above, PT can use bus stops.
<br>
<br>Markus previously said "OsmAnd Is able to navigate with routes
consisting only of highway=bus_stop beside the road."
<br>
<br>So, to be absolutely sure we're singing from the same hymn sheet,
are we agreed that 'public_transport=platform' tag to represent a place
where vehicles stop to allow passengers to alight, is redundant in PT as
another, existing, more prevalent tag - 'highway=bus_stop' can be used
instead?
<br>
<br>Cheers
<br>DaveF
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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