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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/5/2019 7:52 PM, Greg Troxel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:smubm0g793a.fsf@linuxpal.mit.edu">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">"Wayne Emerson, Jr. via Talk-us-massachusetts"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org"><talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org></a> writes:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">be snipped out and incorporated into the OSM map. In reading over the
MassGIS descriptions I believe it said that in that in these 11
communities a valid address would need to include the name of the
"Community"
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The document I had previously linked:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/12/03/Municipal_Address_Standard.pdf">https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/12/03/Municipal_Address_Standard.pdf</a><br>
on page 27 has the info I was referencing above:<br>
4.3.1.<br>
<blockquote>"A community name, as defined in 3.5, is a required
component of every address. There are 193 different Elm Streets
in Massachusetts - obviously, you need to know which Elm Street
is meant. This is the purpose of the zip code, place name, or
what we refer to in this standard as the community name. Most
people don't realize how frequently a geographically incorrect
community name is used, because postal place names are often the
same as, and are confused with, community names. Or postal names
may not be the same as community names at all. The key point is
that postal place names and associated zip codes aren???t
officially mapped and don't refer to fixed geographic areas. In
fact, zip codes may be updated to reflect changes in how the
USPS delivers mail. Community boundaries are authoritative and
much more stable - which is why we use those rather than postal
place names to determine which "Elm Street" we are referring to.
Figure 8 illustrates the kinds of confusion between postal place
name and community name that we are trying to avoid."<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Of course the fact that postal place names will exists
side-by-side with MSAG community names will only add to the
confusion. In these 11 communities the postal borders don???t line
up with the e-911 borders so your postal address could be
Centerville while your 911 address is Hyannis. Will a 90 year old
widow having a heart attack be able to keep that straight while
calling 911? Other place names like Cummaquid or Hyannisport don???t
exist in the MAD.<br>
<br>
So it seems that we have 3 overlapping addressing concepts of
place-names: Historical village names; postal place names; and
e-911 (MSAG) communities. As Bill Ricker wrote it seems the post
office ignores the village name and goes by the zip code. We could
map the zip code boundaries in these towns<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dpostal_code">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dpostal_code</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://download.massgis.digital.mass.gov/shapefiles/state/zipcodes_nt.zip">http://download.massgis.digital.mass.gov/shapefiles/state/zipcodes_nt.zip</a><br>
Then we could leave the addr:postcode and addr:city fields blank
on each individual building and let each application derive postal
addresses from the zip code boundary.<br>
<br>
Regardless of how we format the addresses of our letters, The
cities/towns of Barnstable and Boston, etc., have legally defined
borders that should be admin level 8. These e-911 address-groups
are a new thing. They also have officially defined borders:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://download.massgis.digital.mass.gov/shapefiles/state/msagcomm.zip">http://download.massgis.digital.mass.gov/shapefiles/state/msagcomm.zip</a><br>
Some data consumers are going to need to know these borders.<br>
<br>
There is a lot of OSM nomenclature that aggravates Americans, but
the wiki at<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#For_countries_using_hamlet.2C_subdistrict.2C_district.2C_province.2C_state">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#For_countries_using_hamlet.2C_subdistrict.2C_district.2C_province.2C_state</a><br>
next to addr:suburb says: <b>"If an address exists several times
in a city. You have to add the name of the settlement."</b><br>
They are using the Australian definition of suburb which they map
to admin level 9 or 10<br>
<br>
I???m not sure how a lot of this works, but if the borders of these
e-911 address-communities were mapped in OSM as admin 9 borders,
would this obviate the need to enter the addr:suburb on each
house? So if an application wants a postal address it pulls data
from postal boundary, and if an application wants an e-911 address
it pulls from admin 9 boundary?<br>
Otherwise, it seems that according to the wiki at <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:suburb">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:suburb</a>
we have to put addr:suburb on both the duplicately-addressed
buildings as well the duplicate streets. So it sounds like not
every building in the village needs the addr:suburb, just the
duplicates? Hard to tell as it seems the wiki article was written
by a non-English speaking person.<br>
<br>
We may not like the terminology used in OSM but what other choice
do we have? I don???t like tagging duplexes as building=semi but if
that is the standard then that is what I do, begrudgingly. Simply
making an admin 9 boundary would be agnostic as to whether it???s
called a suburb or a village. It would be up to an application to
assign the border type name.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">says Massachusetts uses Admin 9&10;
for wards & precincts. But I don???t see these in actual use in
the OSM map. These borders change every 10 years. The address
communities are usually physically larger than wards &
precincts. So if they were mapped as admin 9, wards &
precincts could be admin 10, if some future sadists find the
stomach to map them.<br>
<br>
In thinking of how to handle this, it might be better to focus on
how this will work in Boston, which already has the
boundary=neighborhood 's mapped out. These are not admin
boundaries. But I think this would be more of an aesthetic concern
as to how it would look if a map rendered both of these borders
together.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative</a><br>
<b>"Note that in some cases borders may overlap without making it
an incorrect tagging."</b> So a border for Devens shouldn???t be a
problem?<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">-Wayne</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/5/2019 7:52 PM, Greg Troxel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:smubm0g793a.fsf@linuxpal.mit.edu">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">"Wayne Emerson, Jr. via Talk-us-massachusetts"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org"><talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org></a> writes:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">be snipped out and incorporated into the OSM map. In reading over the
MassGIS descriptions I believe it said that in that in these 11
communities a valid address would need to include the name of the
"Community"
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Do you read this as:
in these places, the thing that goes where people expect town name is,
is one of these community names
or
in these places, addresses include the community name and the actual
town name
WHich is the difference between
option 1:
123 Main Street
Hyannis, MA
and
option 2:
123 Main Street
Hyannis, Barnstable, MA
In my experience, option 1 is how it is written and option 2 seems
seriously bizarre.
Part of why I say that is that I think if you asked 100 Mass residents
"Is Hyannis a town or city, like Belmont or Framingham", almost all of
them would say yes. I think it is really not understood that it is
named sub-town of Barnstable, and that in terms of addressing and
navigation, nobody has any idea that it is like that, and everything
works because the addresses are written exactly as if it were a real
town.
_______________________________________________
Talk-us-massachusetts mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org">Talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us-massachusetts">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us-massachusetts</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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