<div dir="auto">I agree with Greg -- "Mass Turnpike" is an abbreviation and should not be in the "name" tag. Road signs sometimes use alternative/shortened spelling (to save space on signs or make it easier to read from a moving vehicle?) like "Northboro" instead of "Northborough", but the official name of the town is still "Northborough".<div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:39 AM <<a href="mailto:talk-us-massachusetts-request@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-us-massachusetts-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-us-massachusetts mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Mass Pike naming convention (Brian M. Sperlongano)<br>
2. Re: Mass Pike naming convention (Nicholas Davidowicz)<br>
3. Re: [Talk-us] Mass Pike naming convention (Greg Troxel)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:47:35 -0400<br>
From: "Brian M. Sperlongano" <<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: OSM Massachusetts <<a href="mailto:talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Cc: talk-us <<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Talk-us-massachusetts] Mass Pike naming convention<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAMrfQx2BnSBjEfKxtHNgCVBWE2w7_bYq8SpsTLu7SZ9o1%2BL3mA@mail.gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">CAMrfQx2BnSBjEfKxtHNgCVBWE2w7_bYq8SpsTLu7SZ9o1+L3mA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
The ways and relation for the Mass Pike currently uses the fully-spelled<br>
out official name of the highway, "Massachusetts Turnpike". However, on<br>
all signs I've ever seen, and in colloquial usage, we call it the "Mass<br>
Pike".<br>
<br>
Here is an example way:<br>
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/9126375" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/9126375</a><br>
<br>
Tagged:<br>
name=Massachusetts Turnpike<br>
<br>
Since all local usage and signage is Mass Pike, I propose that this be<br>
changed to the following:<br>
name=Mass Pike<br>
official_name=Massachusetts Turnpike<br>
<br>
This will put the actually-used name in first position in data consumer<br>
usage such as in rendered maps, while allowing both versions to come up in<br>
searches, such as in geocoders like Nominatim.<br>
<br>
I am including talk-us in this discussion in case there are similar<br>
examples like this in other parts of the country that we might learn from.<br>
<br>
I checked the latest TIGER layer over at<br>
<a href="https://tigerweb.geo.census.gov/tigerweb/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://tigerweb.geo.census.gov/tigerweb/</a> and it doesn't even seem to put a<br>
text name on it, just the I-90 Interstate shield.<br>
<br>
Thoughts?<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 18:42:19 -0400<br>
From: Nicholas Davidowicz <<a href="mailto:nicholasdavidowicz@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">nicholasdavidowicz@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Brian M. Sperlongano" <<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: OSM Massachusetts <<a href="mailto:talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org</a>>,<br>
talk-us <<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us-massachusetts] Mass Pike naming convention<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAOPqmaxrcbN5DXrRjoTCJ-Y1fpMnpQOCMG+=<a href="mailto:icddR8uXtgC5Zg@mail.gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">icddR8uXtgC5Zg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Yeah I think that is a good idea, always ideal for actual signage names to<br>
be reflected. Let me know if help is needed with this.<br>
<br>
Nick<br>
<br>
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:50 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Folks,<br>
><br>
> The ways and relation for the Mass Pike currently uses the fully-spelled<br>
> out official name of the highway, "Massachusetts Turnpike". However, on<br>
> all signs I've ever seen, and in colloquial usage, we call it the "Mass<br>
> Pike".<br>
><br>
> Here is an example way:<br>
> <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/9126375" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/9126375</a><br>
><br>
> Tagged:<br>
> name=Massachusetts Turnpike<br>
><br>
> Since all local usage and signage is Mass Pike, I propose that this be<br>
> changed to the following:<br>
> name=Mass Pike<br>
> official_name=Massachusetts Turnpike<br>
><br>
> This will put the actually-used name in first position in data consumer<br>
> usage such as in rendered maps, while allowing both versions to come up in<br>
> searches, such as in geocoders like Nominatim.<br>
><br>
> I am including talk-us in this discussion in case there are similar<br>
> examples like this in other parts of the country that we might learn from.<br>
><br>
> I checked the latest TIGER layer over at<br>
> <a href="https://tigerweb.geo.census.gov/tigerweb/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://tigerweb.geo.census.gov/tigerweb/</a> and it doesn't even seem to put<br>
> a text name on it, just the I-90 Interstate shield.<br>
><br>
> Thoughts?<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Talk-us-massachusetts mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us-massachusetts" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us-massachusetts</a><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2022 20:33:36 -0400<br>
From: Greg Troxel <<a href="mailto:gdt@lexort.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">gdt@lexort.com</a>><br>
To: Paul Johnson <<a href="mailto:baloo@ursamundi.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">baloo@ursamundi.org</a>><br>
Cc: Mike Thompson <<a href="mailto:miketho16@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">miketho16@gmail.com</a>>, "Brian M. Sperlongano"<br>
<<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>>, OSM Massachusetts<br>
<<a href="mailto:talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org</a>>, talk-us<br>
<<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us-massachusetts] [Talk-us] Mass Pike naming<br>
convention<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:rmir133uja7.fsf@s1.lexort.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">rmir133uja7.fsf@s1.lexort.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul Johnson <<a href="mailto:baloo@ursamundi.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">baloo@ursamundi.org</a>> writes:<br>
<br>
> For what it's worth, seconded.<br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:00 PM Mike Thompson <<a href="mailto:miketho16@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">miketho16@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> According to the wiki, the name should not contain abbreviations[0], and<br>
>> "Mass" is an abbreviation for "Massachusetts." I suggest short_name=Mass<br>
>> Pike. Data consumers can look to this key, or can perform their own<br>
>> abbreviation/shortening.<br>
>><br>
>> Just my 2 cents, and I am not from Mass.<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
<br>
My reaction on reading is that the actual official name belongs in name,<br>
and I concur with Mike and Paul. And I am in MA. ~Everybody knows that<br>
the formal name is Massachusetts Turnpike (note that a fair number of<br>
people are clear on approximately nothing :-). Random link that<br>
confirms that:<br>
<a href="https://www.mass.gov/service-details/massachusetts-turnpike-fuels-excise-refund-program" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mass.gov/service-details/massachusetts-turnpike-fuels-excise-refund-program</a><br>
<br>
There are roads where the name in OpenStreetMap is "Massachusetts<br>
Avenue", the legal name of the road, but I think signs usually say MASS<br>
AVE. Definitely RD and ST appear on signs, and we don't change name= to<br>
match.<br>
<br>
So, I think it's clear that signs are often abbreviations of the actual<br>
names. I know we have a long history of talking about "verifiability",<br>
but it's trivial to verify the official name by consulting the public<br>
records of the entity that is authorized to name it; their statements<br>
make it so. And nobody is actually confused about the facts; the<br>
present question is whether name= is the actual name or the abbreviation<br>
used on signs. I suepect Brian didn't realize that esentially all<br>
street signs are abbreviations. I'll keep my eye open for a<br>
non-abreviated one, which I bet exists but I would find it novel.<br>
(Found it: Way has no abbreviation, but I meant a name which could be<br>
abbreviated and isn't.)<br>
<br>
Greg<br>
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</blockquote></div>