<div dir="ltr">I'm not sure what this "Mass Pike" is that you guys are talking about. Do you mean the Massachusetts Turnpike?<div><br></div><div>/ducks</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:46 PM Greg Troxel <<a href="mailto:gdt@lexort.com">gdt@lexort.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
"Peter Cooper Jr. via Talk-us-massachusetts"<br>
<<a href="mailto:talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us-massachusetts@openstreetmap.org</a>> writes:<br>
<br>
> Or am I overcomplicating things since "the Mass Pike is a toll road"<br>
> is the historic mindset of many people, including myself, and people<br>
> who want to tell their routing engine to avoid tolls are probably<br>
> trying to avoid going on the Pike at all even for short segments that<br>
> don't actually have a toll? (I know, for instance, that my wife will<br>
> tell our GPS that for that reason.)<br>
<br>
A complicated and difficult question. As I see it, two separate<br>
issues:<br>
<br>
There is often a lot of wikifiddilng and debates about exactly how to<br>
tag sometimes seems disconnected from "what are we intending to convey<br>
and how do data consumers use this"?<br>
<br>
What are the use cases for toll tagging? I can see:<br>
- for a proposed route, compute the toll, so that<br>
* routes can be chosen to "avoid toll road"<br>
* some blend of time/distance/toll can be minimized<br>
- renders can display "is this a toll road"<br>
In an ideal world, the tagging community and wiki pages might have<br>
this discussion, but in my experience they do not.<br>
<br>
There is a general principle about roads in terms of trunk/primary that<br>
we don't flip back and forth every 100m. If something isn't trunk for<br>
several km, and is primary before/after, it stays primary. Toll<br>
tagging kind of feels like this, and I'd for most of the time want to<br>
err on the side of broad brush the whole thing as toll.<br>
<br>
As for what people want, I'd say "avoid toll" means avoiding tolls, and<br>
does not mean "avoid interstates (motorways)", for which there is or<br>
should be a separate checkbox. Does your device/program allow that?<br>
<br>
I haven't really dug in, but I would be inclined to say (take this very<br>
loosely!):<br>
<br>
- actual toll gantries should have tags<br>
<br>
- the roads leaving I-9 probably should not be marked toll, even if<br>
you can't get there without having tolled before, but maybe that's<br>
off and they should remain toll until the next way to get onto<br>
them. Maybe that's the I-84 case.<br>
<br>
- I completely see your point about sections that aren't tolled where<br>
you can legally/reasonably get on and off. Those probably should<br>
not be marked toll. This includes the on-ramp where you have a<br>
choice.<br>
<br>
- I observe that routers that avoid toll have to make a route with no<br>
toll.<br>
<br>
- It feels really hacky to just tag a way 100m before and after each<br>
gantry and not the rest. It will work for routers and avoid toll,<br>
but it is not a correct representation of the world.<br>
<br>
- I think that the fact that a road is maintained by a "toll<br>
authority" is not relevant. In fact, I am pretty sure that's no<br>
longer the case and it's just MassDOT, but even if it were, that's<br>
not what makes something a toll road -- it's that you have to pay.<br>
<br>
<br>
I wasn't sure what I thought when I started, but I've come around to<br>
what I think is your view that "a way is tagged toll if it is necessary<br>
to pay a toll to drive on it (in a lawful and reasonable manner)". And<br>
I'm ok with that magic section being not yellow on maps -- because that<br>
is in fact how the world is.<br>
<br>
I am really curious to hear what other people think!<br>
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</blockquote></div>