<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>In commercial data, a category called hamlet is use dfor either neighborhoods, or small unincorporated settlements. I've used them for neighborhoods in OSM mostly because I want to see them rendered - while it would be better to model them with descriptive names. (Formal point-of-interest - "city centers" - all fall into the same category, but have different "population classes". It's nearly identical to the module used for "place" point features, although population ranges are formally set for each place type. There's also ways to flag is something is a national capitol, state capitol, or county seat.)</DIV>
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<DIV>A lot of the discussion held here came up years ago when they designed the GDF specification - (Geographic Data Files). This is an exchange format. A lot of that specification has to with the format of the ascii file - which is irrelevant to our discussion - but it also deals with features types and categories. This is the format that various navigation systems and online map companies receive before converting it into their own proprietary access format.</DIV>
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<DIV>Here's a short wikipedia summary:</DIV>
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<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_Data_Files">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_Data_Files</A></DIV>
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<DIV>Here's a link to an old version of the specification:</DIV>
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<DIV><A href="http://www.ertico.com/en/links/links/gdf_-_geographic_data_files.htm">http://www.ertico.com/en/links/links/gdf_-_geographic_data_files.htm</A></DIV>
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<DIV>This version (3.0) came out 13 years ago. It's since been significantly enhanced - both by ISO, and by Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ. The enhancements add a lot of subtlety, particularly to POI categories. The unfortunate thing is that Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ versions are not 100% compatible with each other, and no one fully complies with the ISO standard. The attributes of the 3.0 spec are largely followed.</DIV>
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<DIV>The Annexes are probably the best place to start, and it contains an appendix of feature categories - while chapters 5, 6, and 7 describe features in detail.</DIV>
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<DIV>While this spec doesn't resolve the "hamlet vs. neighborhood" issue - and it doesn't flesh out details for bicycle routes and paths - it has a lot of sophistication for things like different types of highway ramps, turn restrictions, dealing with road connectivity, etc., etc. I know they want to give people the ability to tag things in new ways, but if OSM has aspirations of becoming a routable database, things have to fall into predictable categories for software to interpret them.</DIV>
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<DIV>-Alan</DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Scott Atwood <scott.roy.atwood@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Michal Migurski <mike@stamen.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> talk-us@openstreetmap.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, November 28, 2008 12:25:38 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Talk-us] Bay Area trailer parks: "hamlet" ? Also neighborhoods & cities<BR></FONT><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Michal Migurski <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:mike@stamen.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:mike@stamen.com">mike@stamen.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Hi,<BR><BR>There are a large number of mobile home / trailer parks mapped in San<BR>Jose, Santa Clara, and other parts of the South Bay. They're tagged<BR>place=hamlet, and I'm wondering if there's a better way to identify<BR>them? Beej71, if you're on this list I think a lot of these came from<BR>you.<BR><BR>Examples here:<BR> <A href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.3995&lon=-122.01521&zoom=15&layers=B000FTFT" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.3995&lon=-122.01521&zoom=15&layers=B000FTFT</A><BR> <A href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.37096&lon=-121.89402&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.37096&lon=-121.89402&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF</A><BR><BR>"Hamlet"
is supposed to be "defined by national/state/provincial<BR>government" yet these aren't really defined by anyone except their<BR>owners. I personally view them as generally equivalent to named<BR>apartment complexes, and therefore not a place. May I suggest that<BR>they be redrawn as landuse=residential areas, with names defined?<BR><BR>On a related topic, I'm also wondering how to handle parts of cities<BR>that are "places" or neighborhoods yet not administratively distinct,<BR>e.g. "West Oakland" (Oakland), "The Mission" (SF), etc. Would<BR>place=neighborhood make sense here?<BR><BR>This part of West Oakland with two named apartment complexes (all<BR>place=hamlet) illustrates what I mean:<BR> <A href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.8096&lon=-122.29504&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.8096&lon=-122.29504&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV>I think people (including me) have been using/misusing place=hamlet for places like neighborboods which have variable official status because there isn't really a good alternative. I think there is a need for place=neighborhood, or something like it. Whatever we come up with ought to be a solution that handles both the traditional, informal notion of a neighborhood, which tends to be relatively small and often has nebulous borders, as well as more formal notions like the districts of Berlin, or the arrondissements of Paris with official status and well defined borders.<BR></DIV>
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<DIV>-Scott</DIV>
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<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>-- <BR>Scott Atwood<BR><BR>Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia. ~H.G. Wells<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>