<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Thanks Alan,</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>There's a bunch to chew on there, it's going to take me a few days to move through the docs. It sounds like what you're suggesting, though, is that the place=hamlet tag really is appropriate for neighborhoods, which is fine. Are you commenting at all on its appropriateness for trailer parks and apartment developments? I may convert some of the Oakland hamlets to named landuse=residential to see what happens.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>I don't actually know what the main OSM tile rendering will do with these. =)</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>-mike.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><br><div><div>On Nov 28, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Alan Brown wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In commercial data, a category called hamlet is use dfor either neighborhoods, or small unincorporated settlements. I've used them for neighborhoods in OSM mostly because I want to see them rendered - while it would be better to model them with descriptive names. (Formal point-of-interest - "city centers" - all fall into the same category, but have different "population classes". It's nearly identical to the module used for "place" point features, although population ranges are formally set for each place type. There's also ways to flag is something is a national capitol, state capitol, or county seat.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A lot of the discussion held here came up years ago when they designed the GDF specification - (Geographic Data Files). This is an exchange format. A lot of that specification has to with the format of the ascii file - which is irrelevant to our discussion - but it also deals with features types and categories. This is the format that various navigation systems and online map companies receive before converting it into their own proprietary access format.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Here's a short wikipedia summary:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_Data_Files">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_Data_Files</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Here's a link to an old version of the specification:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://www.ertico.com/en/links/links/gdf_-_geographic_data_files.htm">http://www.ertico.com/en/links/links/gdf_-_geographic_data_files.htm</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This version (3.0) came out 13 years ago. It's since been significantly enhanced - both by ISO, and by Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ. The enhancements add a lot of subtlety, particularly to POI categories. The unfortunate thing is that Tele Atlas and NAVTEQ versions are not 100% compatible with each other, and no one fully complies with the ISO standard. The attributes of the 3.0 spec are largely followed.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The Annexes are probably the best place to start, and it contains an appendix of feature categories - while chapters 5, 6, and 7 describe features in detail.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">While this spec doesn't resolve the "hamlet vs. neighborhood" issue - and it doesn't flesh out details for bicycle routes and paths - it has a lot of sophistication for things like different types of highway ramps, turn restrictions, dealing with road connectivity, etc., etc. I know they want to give people the ability to tag things in new ways, but if OSM has aspirations of becoming a routable database, things have to fall into predictable categories for software to interpret them.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-Alan</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br> </div><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott Atwood <<a href="mailto:scott.roy.atwood@gmail.com">scott.roy.atwood@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Michal Migurski <<a href="mailto:mike@stamen.com">mike@stamen.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Cc:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, November 28, 2008 12:25:38 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Talk-us] Bay Area trailer parks: "hamlet" ? Also neighborhoods & cities<br></font><br><div class="gmail_quote" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Michal Migurski<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mike@stamen.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mike@stamen.com">mike@stamen.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; ">Hi,<br><br>There are a large number of mobile home / trailer parks mapped in San<br>Jose, Santa Clara, and other parts of the South Bay. They're tagged<br>place=hamlet, and I'm wondering if there's a better way to identify<br>them? Beej71, if you're on this list I think a lot of these came from<br>you.<br><br>Examples here:<br> <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.3995&lon=-122.01521&zoom=15&layers=B000FTFT" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.3995&lon=-122.01521&zoom=15&layers=B000FTFT</a><br> <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.37096&lon=-121.89402&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.37096&lon=-121.89402&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF</a><br><br>"Hamlet" is supposed to be "defined by national/state/provincial<br>government" yet these aren't really defined by anyone except their<br>owners. I personally view them as generally equivalent to named<br>apartment complexes, and therefore not a place. May I suggest that<br>they be redrawn as landuse=residential areas, with names defined?<br><br>On a related topic, I'm also wondering how to handle parts of cities<br>that are "places" or neighborhoods yet not administratively distinct,<br>e.g. "West Oakland" (Oakland), "The Mission" (SF), etc. Would<br>place=neighborhood make sense here?<br><br>This part of West Oakland with two named apartment complexes (all<br>place=hamlet) illustrates what I mean:<br> <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.8096&lon=-122.29504&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.8096&lon=-122.29504&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF</a></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I think people (including me) have been using/misusing place=hamlet for places like neighborboods which have variable official status because there isn't really a good alternative. I think there is a need for place=neighborhood, or something like it. Whatever we come up with ought to be a solution that handles both the traditional, informal notion of a neighborhood, which tends to be relatively small and often has nebulous borders, as well as more formal notions like the districts of Berlin, or the arrondissements of Paris with official status and well defined borders.<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-Scott</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div></div>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Scott Atwood<br><br>Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia. ~H.G. Wells<br><br><br></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Talk-us mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div><div>michal migurski- <a href="mailto:mike@stamen.com">mike@stamen.com</a></div><div> 415.558.1610</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span> </div><br></body></html>