<span style>Third local mapper chimes in: As weird as the cartography will look (and I've seen it appear as such on OSM in other U.S. cities), Route 7 through Burlington has no business being listed as primary. I can hit a maximum of 25mph on the sections between stop signs, and by character that street is more of a Residential Road. </span><div style>
<br></div><div style>That said, it might be worth asking public works what they think; the city transportation layer on VCGI marks it as primary, but I wonder how they treat it locally (particularly with snow removal priority). </div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Either way the summit drink of choice should probably be a switchback :)</div><div style><br></div><div style>-Bill</div><div style>North Ave. </div><br>On Thursday, October 18, 2012, wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: What is the status of the Toolbox? (Richard Fairhurst)<br>
2. Burlington, Vermont road classification (Andrew Guertin)<br>
3. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Richard Weait)<br>
4. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Andrew Guertin)<br>
5. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Alan Millar)<br>
6. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Dale Puch)<br>
7. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Mike N)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:54:49 +0100<br>
From: Richard Fairhurst <richard@systemeD.net><br>
To: <a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] What is the status of the Toolbox?<br>
Message-ID: <50803459.4020205@systemeD.net><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Charlotte Wolter wrote:<br>
> What is the status of the Toolbox? When will it be fixed? It is<br>
> difficult to do any editing without those tools. And, whose idea was<br>
> that banner? Did they ask anyone before they implemented it? Did<br>
> they test to make sure it didn't break anything?<br>
<br>
Goodness me, Charlotte, you are hard work sometimes.<br>
<br>
I'm assuming you're referring to the Potlatch 2 toolbox, though you<br>
don't say.<br>
<br>
I am working on it Right Now and have been doing so for the last hour. I<br>
would have fixed it yesterday were it not for your opinionising of the<br>
trac ticket, which exasperated me sufficiently that I went and did<br>
something else instead. Right now I am trying not to get similarly<br>
exasperated... though clearly not with much success. :|<br>
<br>
Richard<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:48:39 -0400<br>
From: Andrew Guertin <<a>andrew.guertin@uvm.edu</a>><br>
To: <a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification<br>
Message-ID: <<a>50806B27.60204@uvm.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we<br>
disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for<br>
more opinions.<br>
<br>
The crux of the problem is the answer to the question: Which is more<br>
important, outside/official classifications, or physical characteristics?<br>
<br>
The tagging pages on the wiki don't really provide clarity on this<br>
matter. For example, from [1],<br>
> Almost all other U.S. Highways get highway=primary. A primary<br>
> highway generally provides the best route (excluding motorways)<br>
> connecting adjacent cities or communities<br>
<br>
> Even where U.S. Highways connect only smaller communities, they still<br>
> merit highway=primary<br>
<br>
but<br>
<br>
> Primary highways generally lack stop signs; however, stop signs may<br>
> control major intersections in rural areas with low traffic volumes<br>
> and occur rarely elsewhere.<br>
<br>
<br>
The most notable example of this is North Willard Street[2]. It is part<br>
of US Route 7, but as can be seen with Bing Imagery, it is narrow, made<br>
narrower by street parking on both sides, and is controlled by stop<br>
signs. Similarly, Main Street is part of US Route 2, but has many<br>
lights, and does not even satisfy the "near the highest speed generally<br>
allowed on surface streets" note about secondary streets.<br>
<br>
Of note, there is in fact no path to get from US 7 south of Burlington<br>
to US 7 north of Burlington without stopping at at least one stop sign,<br>
except for the interstate. Should this imply that there just aren't any<br>
major roads here?<br>
<br>
<br>
We're especially interested in input from nearby states--the rest of New<br>
England and northern New York, but of course anyone with an opinion<br>
please chime in!<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
--Andrew<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[1] <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a><br>
[2]<br>
<a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.48388&lon=-73.20368&zoom=16&layers=M" target="_blank">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.48388&lon=-73.20368&zoom=16&layers=M</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:07:12 -0400<br>
From: Richard Weait <<a>richard@weait.com</a>><br>
To: Andrew Guertin <<a>andrew.guertin@uvm.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAGwUD5uBVUm2gGJrdxQxM_dyeZ1xJnhGEoh3hzLLWOY=<a>jHi21A@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin <<a>andrew.guertin@uvm.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we<br>
> disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for<br>
> more opinions.<br>
<br>
If you are both local mappers, I suggest that you actually meet face<br>
to face and share a beverage. As mappers, you both have much more in<br>
common, in your concerns about this great project, then you have<br>
differences on this small matter of tagging.<br>
<br>
Over a coffee, or other beverage of choice, talk and argue about<br>
favourite editor, preferred survey methods, favourite rendering and<br>
the benefits of each of your mapper baseball cards. Then settle this<br>
little thing about the precise classification of a few local roads.<br>
It doesn't matter how you settle it. Divide the town in odd-even<br>
blocks, or take roads at the front back half of the alphabet, or take<br>
turns being right from north to south in town.<br>
<br>
But settle it. You two should be enjoying the camaraderie of your<br>
shared interest. Not fussing over trivialities. :-)<br>
<br>
Now, if only one of you is local, and the difference is purely matter<br>
of opinion, then it's easy. Local mapper wins by on the ground rule.*<br>
<br>
* note: on the ground rule doesn't apply if I'm involved. Then "I<br>
win" is the rule we go by. :-)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:26:51 -0400<br>
From: Andrew Guertin <<a>andrew.guertin@uvm.edu</a>><br>
To: <a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification<br>
Message-ID: <<a>5080741B.9030007@uvm.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2012 05:07 PM, Richard Weait wrote:<br>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin <<a>andrew.guertin@uvm.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Hi,<br>
>><br>
>> There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we<br>
>> disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for<br>
>> more opinions.<br>
><br>
> If you are both local mappers, I suggest that you actually meet face<br>
> to face and share a beverage. [...]<br>
<br>
While not a bad idea, I don't think that this is necessary or helpful<br>
for this case. We're both impressed with each other's work, and (it<br>
seems through text at least) perfectly willing to accept the other's<br>
viewpoint, it's just that now we've realized that the docs are ambiguous<br>
enough to make *both* viewpoints valid, and we'd like to choose the one<br>
that most closely matches the rest of the map, especially in nearby areas.<br>
<br>
In other words, amicable disagreement, not a budding edit war. :)<br>
<br>
--Andrew<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:11:13 -0700 (PDT)<br>
From: Alan Millar <<a>grunthos503@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: "<a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>" <<a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a>1350598273.10049.YahooMailNeo@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
The crux of the problem is the answer to the question: Which is more<br>
>important, outside/official classifications, or physical characteristics?<br>
><br>
>The tagging pages on the wiki don't really provide clarity on this<br>
>matter.<br>
><br>
Although the wiki may not be very clear, this subject has been discussed extensively on talk-us in the last year or two.? For the highway tag in particular, the consensus I've seen is that it is definitely more about the physical characteristics, "driveability", and perhaps perceived local importance than any government classifications.? Yes, part of that is subjective.?? Highway=motorway in particular is about physical characteristics, regardless of being state, US, or Interstate highway.? Primary/secondary/tertiary are more related to size and/or local importance, which sometimes matches gov't classifications but often does not.? (Related to this is the "ref" tag, used to designate official route numbers.)<br>
<br>
- Alan<br>
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<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:11:48 -0400<br>
From: Dale Puch <<a>dale.puch@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Andrew Guertin <<a>andrew.guertin@uvm.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a>CA+akea9V-otuY5GQHero27KLJGa3Op+Yc4W0HttAWDKbVizVhg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Bottom line is it is subjective. Be friendly, make a compromise and have<br>
fun mapping.<br>
<br>
This is something that has shown up a few times that I recall. What I<br>
remember from that is primary rely on "ground truth" but it can be adjusted<br>
for map consistency and other extenuating factors. Unfortunately that<br>
comes under the judgment of the mappers.<br>
<br>
Examples: I remember there are Interstates that are actually unpaved in<br>
places, but tagged like all the rest of the interstates with perhaps<br>
surface=unpaved ect. I think Alaska might be good examples of this but<br>
haven't checked into it myself. Another is where the road conditions<br>
change for a mile or two before reverting back. Especially if this happens<br>
several times in a row it is usually desirable to keep one classification<br>
instead of going back and forth. Relative conditions of the area also come<br>
into play. It isn't always a question of the road at that specific point<br>
meeting a set of requirements.<br>
<br>
Specifically for your example of US 7 and route 2. Both seem to connect<br>
the center of burlington to other major roads and populations centers, not<br>
just a local road.<br>
<br>
My answer that isn't an answer.... :p<br>
Dale<br>
<br>
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin <<a>andrew.guertin@uvm.edu</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we<br>
> disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for<br>
> more opinions.<br>
><br>
> The crux of the problem is the answer to the question: Which is more<br>
> important, outside/official classifications, or physical characteristics?<br>
><br>
> The tagging pages on the wiki don't really provide clarity on this<br>
> matter. For example, from [1],<br>
> > Almost all other U.S. Highways get highway=primary. A primary<br>
> > highway generally provides the best route (excluding motorways)<br>
> > connecting adjacent cities or communities<br>
><br>
> > Even where U.S. Highways connect only smaller communities, they still<br>
> > merit highway=primary<br>
><br>
> but<br>
><br>
> > Primary highways generally lack stop signs; however, stop signs may<br>
> > control major intersections in rural areas with low traffic volumes<br>
> > and occur rarely elsewhere.<br>
><br>
><br>
> The most notable example of this is North Willard Street[2]. It is part<br>
> of US Route 7, but as can be seen with Bing Imagery, it is narrow, made<br>
> narrower by street parking on both sides, and is controlled by stop<br>
> signs. Similarly, Main Street is part of US Route 2, but has many<br>
> lights, and does not even satisfy the "near the highest speed generally<br>
> allowed on surface streets" note about secondary streets.<br>
><br>
> Of note, there is in fact no path to get from US 7 south of Burlington<br>
> to US 7 north of Burlington without stopping at at least one stop sign,<br>
> except for the interstate. Should this imply that there just aren't any<br>
> major roads here?<br>
><br>
><br>
> We're especially interested in input from nearby states--the rest of New<br>
> England and northern New York, but of course anyone with an opinion<br>
> please chime in!<br>
><br>
> Thanks,<br>
> --Andrew<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> [1] <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a><br>
> [2]<br>
> <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.48388&lon=-73.20368&zoom=16&layers=M" target="_blank">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.48388&lon=-73.20368&zoom=16&layers=M</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Talk-us mailing list<br>
> <a>Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Dale Puch<br>
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<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:17:16 -0400<br>
From: Mike N <<a>niceman@att.net</a>><br>
To: <a>talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification<br>
Message-ID: <<a>50807FEC.8080000@att.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2012 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin wrote:<br>
> The most notable example of this is North Willard Street[2]. It is part<br>
> of US Route 7, but as can be seen with Bing Imagery, it is narrow, made<br>
> narrower by street parking on both sides, and is controlled by stop<br>
> signs. Similarly, Main Street is part of US Route 2, but has many<br>
> lights, and does not even satisfy the "near the highest speed generally<br>
> allowed on surface streets" note about secondary streets.<br>
<br>
An uninformed opinion - armchair only, and from a different part of<br>
the country.<br>
<br>
An informal US OSM convention is that US highways are generally a<br>
minimum of primary, no matter how small the highway is when going<br>
through a town. I would say that this is especially valid when there<br>
are no better driving routes nearby with lower legal classification.<br>
It would be a gray area to me if an alternate state or county route had<br>
better driving attributes (width, speed, traffic control devices etc).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
____________________________________</blockquote><br><br>-- <br>----------<br>William Morris<br>Cartographer<br>(802)-870-0880<br><a href="mailto:wboykinm@geosprocket.com" target="_blank">wboykinm@geosprocket.com</a><br>
Twitter: @vtcraghead<br><br>GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT<br><a href="http://www.geosprocket.com" target="_blank">www.geosprocket.com</a><br>