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--></style><title>Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the
world</title></head><body>Under French law, would it be a violation of that copyright if someone recorded a GPX trace while walking along the signposted route, then mapped that route in OSM using the GPX trace and not using the GR name or shield? Do any of these routes have non-copyrighted local names?<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On April 4, 2015 11:40:53 AM CDT, stevea <steveaOSM@softworkers.com> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">exceptions, I believe the GR issue is
still unsolved).</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite"><br /></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">Yes, all of that is fair game.
Though I don't know what "the GR issue" is, and ask you to
please clarify.</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite"><br /></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">Sorry for the late answer, been on the
road for two days and now are on a rather flaky network connection.
See <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France</a> for a
very short synopsis of the GR issue.</blockquote>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Thank you. A quick GR synopsis: hiking routes in
France, even with trailblazers marked on-the-ground (!), are under a
restricted copyright and cannot be OSM-entered. Wow! Our
oft-quoted test "is it on-the-ground-verifiable?" to
determine whether data are OSM-enterable is not as clear-cut as
"yes or no?"</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>We need discussion, sometimes a Legal Team determinations, good
will and open hearts as we figure this all out. Sometimes on a
case-by-case basis. Not dogma, dig-in-our-heels zealotry.
That isn't easy, so let's face that squarely and cut each other some
slack that while there may be friction, we won't burst into
flame.</div>
<div><br /></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">...... As "facts about the
world," these data belong to us, and when true, we can put them
into OSM. (Sometimes such data, like airline routes, are
inappropriate to put into OSM -- but that's another
topic).</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite"><br /></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">I think where we differ is that I see OSM
(not only) as a project that demonstrates (in practical use) what
citizens can do with today's technology, in an area that just a couple
of years back was completely controlled by government and industry.
If by doing so, more government data becomes freely available then
that is a nice side effect, but not a primary goal.</blockquote>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Recall what made me start this thread: I want to clean
up/improve crusty/wrong TIGER railway data. THAT, in the instant
case, is my primary goal. I assert, I believe 100% correctly,
that the names of long industrial things hundreds of km long are both
"my business" and "facts about the world" that
"belong" to nobody in particular, but rather everybody, and
hence deserve to be in OSM as correct. I'm not necessarily doing
an import, I'm better naming crusty/wrong data OSM already has with
facts about the world. Yes, these happen to be confirmed by data
published by my employees (government agencies). That's it.
Please don't conflate the process just outlined with "government
data becoming more freely available as a side effect" as that is
not what I just described nor is it what is happening here.</div>
<div><br /></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">I don't see it as a vehicle to promote
any specific agenda outside of the relatively narrow goals of the
project itself. In particular I don't see potentially impacting the
primary goal of providing free (as in free of legal restrictions by
third parties) geo data to everyone by becoming embrolied in legal
fights just to prove a point.</blockquote>
<div><br /></div>
<div>I like proving points when it suits me (especially when I am
right!) but again, that's not what this is. It is cleaning up
old, wrong data so they are correct, appropriate-to-be-in-OSM data
(but only when correct, and they are wrong now).</div>
<div><br /></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="cite">It is my subjective impression is that we
are just on the brink of the project being unworkable because our
contributors are too bold in using third party sources -not- the other
way around (and yes when I get back home I have to deal with removing
months of work by a mapper together with the DWG because they were too
bold).</blockquote>
<div><br /></div>
<div>I respectfully and strenuously disagree. We still (and
likely will) continue to have some predictable and manageable problems
with import of data from third party sources, but we have procedures
in place to make imports and third party data sources (two different
things, but they do often overlap) better. Emphasis on
"manageable." My turn to ask: How much of these
problems are OUR FAULT? The obvious answer is "every last
bit." We need to educate people, train them and be
vigilant. We do all of these things, but if we still have
problems (we do, but they do not threaten to make the project
unworkable) we simply must do better.</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>That's roll-up-our-sleeves work, but it isn't throw-up-our-hands
"the project is almost unworkable."</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Respectfully,</div>
<div>SteveA</div>
<div>California</div>
<p style="margin-top: 2.5em; margin-bottom: 1em; border-bottom: 1px solid #000"></p><pre class="k9mail"><hr /><br />Talk-us mailing list<br />Talk-us@openstreetmap.org<br /><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a><br /></pre></blockquote></div><br>
-- <br>
John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com<br>
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.</body></html>