<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Volker Schmidt <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com" target="_blank">voschix@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Paul <br></div>Thanks for the quick reaction - I knew you would reply.<br><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="m_-8061224753791603126gmail-"><div><br></div></span><div>Well, the shoulder wouldn't count as a lane (a bicycle lane would, however).  Not quite sure how to tag the bicycle use shoulder case (though I am aware that it is extremely common in the US), but if it were an actual, bicycle-only lane instead, assuming three lanes on a side with the right lane being bicycle only, and signage indicating that bicycles must use the bicycle lane:</div><div><br></div><div>lanes=3</div><div>oneway=yes</div><div>cycleway=lane</div><div>motor_vehicle:lanes=yes|yes|no</div><div>bicycle:lanes=no|no|designated</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div> </div></span><div>This does not reflect the real situation, which is the presence of an emergency stop lane for motor vehicles, which may be used by bicycles. It is different from a dedicated cycle lane, which is what your tagging describes.  I have seen and ysed a number of bicycle lanes in the US that "deserve" your tagging. <br></div><div>The shoulder=yes tag is being used a lot in combination with bicycle=yes<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That works.  I'm not super-familiar with the shoulder key in general since it's not <i>that</i> common in the grand scheme in North America, but I like it.  Maybe for a typical expressway with wide outfield shoulder...</div><div><br></div><div>lanes=2</div><div>oneway=yes</div><div>shoulder=yes</div><div>bicycle=yes</div><div>bicycle:lanes=no|no</div><div><br></div><div>This one's a little bit of a headscratcher mostly due to shoulder tagging being relatively uncommon on my continent, though I would generally expect highway=(motorway|trunk) bicycle=yes to imply that anyway.  (I'm not rehashing the argument that motorway and trunk should imply bicycle=yes anyway since, mile for mile, that <i>is</i> the most common access combination in the US).</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.html?Q=%2F*%0AThis%20has%20been%20generated%20by%20the%20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%0AThe%20original%20search%20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cshoulder%3Dyes%20and%20bicycle%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A*%2F%0A%5Bout%3Ajson%5D%5Btimeout%3A25%5D%3B%0A%2F%2F%20gather%20results%0A(%0A%20%20%2F%2F%20query%20part%20for%3A%20%E2%80%9Cshoulder%3Dyes%20and%20bicycle%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A%20%20node%5B%22shoulder%22%3D%22yes%22%5D%5B%22bicycle%22%3D%22yes%22%5D(33.17434155100208%2C-116.773681640625%2C36.98939086733937%2C-112.48901367187499)%3B%0A%20%20way%5B%22shoulder%22%3D%22yes%22%5D%5B%22bicycle%22%3D%22yes%22%5D(33.17434155100208%2C-116.773681640625%2C36.98939086733937%2C-112.48901367187499)%3B%0A%20%20relation%5B%22shoulder%22%3D%22yes%22%5D%5B%22bicycle%22%3D%22yes%22%5D(33.17434155100208%2C-116.773681640625%2C36.98939086733937%2C-112.48901367187499)%3B%0A)%3B%0A%2F%2F%20print%20results%0Aout%20body%3B%0A%3E%3B%0Aout%20skel%20qt%3B" target="_blank">http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.<wbr>html?Q=%2F*%0AThis%20has%<wbr>20been%20generated%20by%20the%<wbr>20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%<wbr>0AThe%20original%20search%<wbr>20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cshoulder%<wbr>3Dyes%20and%20bicycle%3Dyes%<wbr>E2%80%9D%0A*%2F%0A%5Bout%<wbr>3Ajson%5D%5Btimeout%3A25%5D%<wbr>3B%0A%2F%2F%20gather%<wbr>20results%0A(%0A%20%20%2F%2F%<wbr>20query%20part%20for%3A%20%E2%<wbr>80%9Cshoulder%3Dyes%20and%<wbr>20bicycle%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A%<wbr>20%20node%5B%22shoulder%22%3D%<wbr>22yes%22%5D%5B%22bicycle%22%<wbr>3D%22yes%22%5D(33.<wbr>17434155100208%2C-116.<wbr>773681640625%2C36.<wbr>98939086733937%2C-112.<wbr>48901367187499)%3B%0A%20%<wbr>20way%5B%22shoulder%22%3D%<wbr>22yes%22%5D%5B%22bicycle%22%<wbr>3D%22yes%22%5D(33.<wbr>17434155100208%2C-116.<wbr>773681640625%2C36.<wbr>98939086733937%2C-112.<wbr>48901367187499)%3B%0A%20%<wbr>20relation%5B%22shoulder%22%<wbr>3D%22yes%22%5D%5B%22bicycle%<wbr>22%3D%22yes%22%5D(33.<wbr>17434155100208%2C-116.<wbr>773681640625%2C36.<wbr>98939086733937%2C-112.<wbr>48901367187499)%3B%0A)%3B%0A%<wbr>2F%2F%20print%20results%0Aout%<wbr>20body%3B%0A%3E%3B%0Aout%<wbr>20skel%20qt%3B</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Wishlist item for overpass-turbo...shorter URLs.  Seriously link gore there. </div><div>  </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="m_-8061224753791603126gmail-"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div></div>(2) how to tag longitudinal rumble strips, <br>(situated between motorized-traffic lanes and shoulders, example: [1], not the "sleeping policeman" type that goes across the road nd which is normally tagged as traffic_calming=rumble_strip on a node of the highway)<br>To tag their presence is important because they represent an augmented protection of cyclists on the shoulder from cars invading the shoulder by mistake, i.e. reduced risk of being killed.<br></div>To note that I have encountered rumble-strip-separated shoulders also on roads below the rank of trunk or motorway</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I'm not quite sure how necessary it is at this point.  The kind of example you have provided is being phased out in favor of strips with gaps in them so bicyclists can get on and off the shoulder without dealing with the rumbles, or eliminated on roads with a narrow hard shoulder.  In both cases, for the reason for that is that not taking bicycles into account does more harm than good.  This is true even on routes that are normally closed to bicyclists except when police tell you to use it anyway (like Interstate 70 in Kansas). </div></div></div></div></blockquote></span><div>My point maybe was not clear enough: I would like to tag the longitudinal rumble strips, independently of whether they are continuous or interrupted, because I want to be able to classify route sections according to their level of bicycle safety. If I have a stretch of motorway with a shoulder, this same stretch is safer for bicycle use when a rumble strip is present than when it is not, because it reduces the risk of a motor vehicle invading the shoulder. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, you were perfectly clear on that.  While longitudinal shoulder rumble strips (SRS) are known to help reduce the number of run-off-road incidents for motorists.  I was coming at it from the perspective that SRS actually <a href="http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/roadway_dept/research/exec_summary.htm">create a nuisance hazard for bicyclists</a>, which is also why states are moving to friendlier designs that aren't quite as deep and wide (older designs cross the <i>entire</i> shoulder, for example; these can be found on parts of I 5 in Washington and older concrete parts of the Kansas Turnpike where it runs diagonally NE/SW for example, and are of such an amplitude that it can be difficult to steer a motor vehicle on, to say nothing of a bicycle's experience on those).  The radical reduction in number of bad SRS designs and further reduction in SRS designs that lack bicycle gaps in the last decade (and especially since the minimum standards for them were tightened in 2009) along with the perspective that SRS tend to be a hazard for cyclists is where I was assuming you were coming from in terms of mapping them.</div><div><br></div><div>In either case, I'm not sure there's a tag for SRS features yet.  Maybe shoulder:rumble_strip=* ?</div></div></div></div>