<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Definitely a pain. It took me a long time to alter (I hope improve) the land cover around the Morgan trailhead and San Mateo peak. Trails, etc. were easy to do from my Garmin tracks and satellite imagery but working with the existing land use/cover was so frustrating I nearly decided not to touch it.<div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Tod Fitch</div><div class="">(n76 on OSM)<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 15, 2017, at 6:37 AM, Steve Friedl <<a href="mailto:steve@unixwiz.net" class="">steve@unixwiz.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The challenge with the Scrub from Hell is that it’s mostly one huge area (role=outer in 8 segments) and 40 or something role=inner that provide “cutouts” for things other than natural=scrub; this could be a lake or it could be a city or whatever. This is the largest single object I’ve ever had to work with in OSM.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I guess I’ll start looking for natural boundaries to split the big area into smaller ones which will make them more manageable (and separate).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Some have suggested just removing the scrub entirely, but this is going to make the Santa Ana mountains look lousy; it’s almost entirely scrub, and that’s where I hike.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Steve<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nathan Mixter [<a href="mailto:nmixter@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:nmixter@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, August 14, 2017 2:12 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>OSM Volunteer stevea <<a href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">steveaOSM@softworkers.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>talk-us <<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>>; David Kewley <<a href="mailto:david.t.kewley@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">david.t.kewley@gmail.com</a>>; Rihards <<a href="mailto:richlv@nakts.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">richlv@nakts.net</a>>; Steve Friedl <<a href="mailto:steve@unixwiz.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">steve@unixwiz.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Talk-us] natural=* and landuse=* multipolygons at the urban interface<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Steve is indeed correct. ID isn't really designed as an editor of complex relations since it is browser based. In JOSM, you can select the relation and all the members <br class="">and easily see how the elements interact. That being said, it is fine to simplify the FMMP relationships by splitting them into smaller parts like you did or even to delete <br class="">the relationships altogether. Especially in Orange County, it might be easier just to delete it. <br class=""><br class="">The FMMP data are designed primarily to focus on farms. The original designation of "farm" has now been changed to "farmland". Unfortunately it doesn't break it <br class="">down further to separate things like orchards and vineyards. The data are usually pretty good in separating farmland from everything else. But the everything else is where<br class="">it gets vague. The FMMP data are not designed to break down landcover designations like grassland, scrub, meadows or woods.<br class="">In that sense, it really isn't a landcover import.<br class=""><br class="">Even with true landcover imports like Corine, the distinction between what is classified a certain way is often arbitrary compared with what you would expect to find by <br class="">looking at imagery.<br class=""><br class="">Often the FMMP landcovers and landuses will be grouped together as non farm land. Not too helpful for OSM purposes. If there is no actual farmland like in the area <br class="">around Orange County it makes sense just to delete it entirely since nothing is gained if the area covered is too broad. <o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Nathan<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><br class=""><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<br class="">Development in Orange County, California pushes into areas currently<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">covered by polygons (often large multipolygons) tagged as natural=scrub,<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">landuse=meadow, or landuse=[farm|farmland]. These were part of the FMMP<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">import <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California_Farms." target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California_Farms.</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Mostly I try to leave those large multipologons alone, because I don't feel<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">confident I can handle them properly, and because I'm using iD (due to<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">using a Chromebook), where relation handling is rudimentary.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">But I'd like to update the urban-wildland boundary, where new suburban<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">developments are pushing into former wildland, farmland, or (historical?)<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">"grazing land". See for example the new development (with 2017 imagery<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">recently added to Bing) at<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id#map=16/33.5352/-117.6034." target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id#map=16/33.5352/-117.6034.</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Editing these huge multipolygons, and reviewing others' edits to them,<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">becomes very cumbersome, at least to me. It seems to me probably sensible<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">and reasonable at the urban edge to split off small parts of these<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">multipolygons, e.g. at roads, to make the smaller bits easier to edit and<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">review in the context of the expanding urban edge.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">As one test / demonstration edit (<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51090963" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51090963</a>), I carved off a bit of<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">natural=scrub from a large outer role of a multipolygon, into its own<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">polygon. I manually added new boundary way segments, stitched them together<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">into the existing ways, copied tags, and made the split-off piece its own<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">polygon, independent of its original parent multipolygon. I did the split<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">at an existing highway=residential object (Golden Ridge Lane).<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">I know, I should find a way to use JOSM, which I expect makes this much<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">easier. :)<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Meanwhile, does this seem a reasonable approach to making the urban<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">interface a bit more manageable in the future? I.e. splitting off parts of<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">large multipolygons (so long as they don't have names or other unique<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">identifiers that matter, just generic tags things like natural=scrub), to<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">make future editing easier?<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">I know for the above example of a new residential area, I could make a<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">landuse=residential island, and make it an inner role in the surrounding<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">landuse=meadow multipolygon. But at some point as the urban sprawl expands,<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">it seems to me it makes more sense to stop pretending the area is dominated<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">by the natural features, and make it clear it's dominated by e.g.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">landuse=residential, with possibly interspersed natural features like scrub.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">What would the group suggest?<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Is my test edit reasonable, or should it be reverted?<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Thanks,<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">David<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">P.S. As an aside (not my main point today), the FMMP-based distinction in<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">this area between scrub and meadow seems awfully arbitrary. I could be<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">mistaken, but I don't believe the "meadow" is actually used today for<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">grazing nor feed harvesting, and in the aerial photography, it appears<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">indistinguishable from the adjacent "scrub". It appears (and I'm nearly<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">certain from driving by) that there's both substantial grass and<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">substantial woody plant cover, in similar ratios in both "meadow" and<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">"scrub".<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">I don't believe there's any current agricultural use of that land, at least<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">not near where I'm giving examples today. There might be some<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">large-acreage, semi-wildland grazing or feed harvesting activity remaining<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">in Orange County, but I've not noticed any.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">As documented in the FMMP wiki page<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California_Farms," target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California_Farms,</a> the FMMP designation<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">"Grazing Land" was mapped to landuse=meadow.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">But the FMMP designation of "Grazing Land" explicitly does not mean that<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">there *is* grazing activity there, just that it is "...land on which the<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">existing vegetation, whether grown naturally or through management, is<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">suitable for grazing or browsing of livestock." (See for example<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><a href="http://www.conservation.ca.gov/dlrp/fmmp/Documents/soil_criteria.pdf." target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.conservation.ca.gov/dlrp/fmmp/Documents/soil_criteria.pdf.</a>) So<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">wildlands that will never again see livestock, or harvesting for livestock<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">feed, can still be designated Grazing Land by FMMP. Those areas map better<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">to natural=grassland or natural=scrub, I think.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">So landuse=meadow seems less useful than natural=scrub or natural=grassland<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">for many of these areas. Even though this is a secondary point today, I'd<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">welcome comments on this as well.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellpadding="0" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(211, 212, 222); border-top-width: 1pt;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td width="55" style="width: 41.25pt; border: none; padding: 9.75pt 0.75pt 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="text-decoration: none;" class=""><img border="0" width="46" height="29" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" style="width: 0.4791in; height: 0.302in;" class=""></span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></td><td width="470" style="width: 352.5pt; border: none; padding: 9pt 0.75pt 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 13.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(65, 66, 78);" class="">Virus-free.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(68, 83, 234);" class="">www.avast.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 9:29 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea <<a href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">steveaOSM@softworkers.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">David, I would contact Nathan Mixter directly (in OSM, nmixter, import account Eureka gold) and ask him what he thinks, as he is (largely speaking) the original importer of these (and many other, very large) imports, many of which, unfortunately generated consternation or reversion. You might ask him what his plans are to "upkeep" the data he has imported.<br class=""><br class="">Nathan is a friend of mine I met in OSM (on a personal and "let's go hiking/camping/backpacking together" level) and I have helped him on both improving the Santa Cruz County (my home) and Monterey County (next door to both of us) landuse imports that he initiated. Together, we did the single-county FMMP import of Monterey County (only, I didn't help with other counties) over many months (instead of the days Nathan thought it might take) as I wanted to convey the care, vetting, quality assurance and teamwork that such an endeavor truly requires to get it right (or much closer to right, as I still think Monterey County's landuse from this import is "pretty good," if I say so myself). I/we documented what we did if you click around the links in our wiki, already introduced in this thread.<br class=""><br class="">In short, these landuse polygons are indeed very large, unwieldy or virtually "just kill me now" highly difficult to edit using iD (PLEASE use JOSM to edit complex polygons like these!). I declare that they aren't anything "sacred," especially as new human urban development simply outdates more and more edges of these data as obsolete. Subtle differences between scrub and meadow, while I admire your diligence in determining "what is best" for a given area, are not hard-and-firm. I'd characterize these FMMP imports as "2010-12 data, roughly applied to OSM to avoid large blank areas in California" (except Monterey County, were I was very careful to apply the lipstick carefully so there was no piggy ugliness about it). So, should these FMMP import (multi)polygons need to be changed, edited, modernized and especially trimmed down to more manageable size, please, get a read from Nathan if you can, then take the controls of JOSM firmly in your hands and go for it! Especially as those bulldozers build those suburbs.<br class=""><br class="">Nathan, you might please chime in either on-list or via email to this distro; thank you. If you wish, I additionally invite anybody to contact me off-list to ask about this topic should you care to know further details, though Nathan is the primary importer of these data.<br class=""><br class="">SteveA<br class="">California<o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Talk-us mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></div></body></html>