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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">I have spent a very large amount of
      time cleaning up TIGER in rural areas of Florida. I agree with
      others that the vast majority of untouched TIGER ways in
      un-populated rural areas classified as residential are forest
      roads for logging trucks at best and pure fantasy at worst, with
      tons of barely grass paths all over the place. Many of these roads
      are on private lands that you can't (or shouldn't) access anyway.
      Spatially accuracy is often horrific. I've reviewed a decent
      amount of 2017 TIGER and many areas have not been fixed. The best
      secondary source of data I have found are county streets from the
      county GIS departments, but those vary widely in quality. At the
      very least the county data shows you where all the forest tracks,
      farms tracks and imaginary TIGER streets are, because they are not
      there in the county data sets. Many times, a residential street
      having no name is a strong tip as well that it is not a
      residential street.<br>
      <br>
      Kevin, I hear where you are coming from, but I think your case is
      somewhat unique. Most people aren't going to look at a GPS with
      OSM data in it, see a bunch of residential roads in a rural
      un-populated area and think, OK, that must be unedited TIGER, but
      I know there's a few navigable roads in there somewhere, I just
      need to find them, record what I found and make some OSM edits. If
      they know the area, they are going to think this data is junk. If
      they don't know the area and they head into it they will then
      figure out pretty quickly the data is junk. I agree with others
      that these roads should probably not be in OSM at all - let the
      locals add the real roads and tracks. But we are living with the
      old TIGER, and there is some potential usefulness that can come
      from it. So as others have said, we are willing to leave them
      there, downgrade them to track without a grade assigned for now,
      maybe make some spatial corrections, delete roads that are
      obviously pure fantasy, etc. <br>
      <br>
      I don't think there should be any requirement to cover a certain
      size area when reviewing these areas. We need to be thankful that
      someone has taken the time to look at even a small area of rural
      areas that don't get much attention normally at all, especially
      private lands.<br>
      <br>
      Brian<br>
      <br>
      On 2/12/2018 6:02 PM, Kevin Broderick wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPtRu6dR0OnHPOgrLWds5a9J8CMtWrQ8vFsc5+_Y3B=KUqFxhg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">If you can cover an entire area (which I'd define
        as a swath between the nearest state highways), I agree that
        downgrading to track absent other clues is one reasonable
        solution. One of my key points is that anyone who's spent a fair
        bit of time trying to use GPS maps (of any origin) in
        poorly-mapped areas will quickly recognize an area that is
        clearly an unverified TIGER import, which signals both (a) that
        the data is clearly questionable and (b) that it might be an
        interesting place to explore to find out if the roads do go
        through or not. The questionable map data can be very useful,
        especially in conjunction with other data sources, in attempting
        to piece together a route through an area that lacks fully
        maintained roadways. If a track doesn't actually exist, yes,
        then it should certainly be deleted, but I've ridden
        right-of-ways that were damn near impossible to see with leaf-on
        imagery and also found other routes that looked more road-like
        via the same imagery impassable, so I definitely wouldn't delete
        anything unless you can get there in person and look for
        evidence of a roadway, perhaps one that hasn't been maintained
        in decades (e.g. Class IV roads in Vermont and Class VI roads in
        New Hampshire).
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Downgrading some ways to tracks without doing so to a whole
          localized network creates the appearance of a higher level of
          data accuracy than actually exists, which IMO is more likely
          to bite someone in the ass than having a localized network of
          roads that are mislabeled. I know it would make some of the
          exploring I've done via on/off-road motorcycle more difficult.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I'd also suggest that leaving tiger:reviewed at no is
          appropriate if you haven't been able to travel the road/track
          in question and determine whether it is really an unclassified
          road or a track, so it remains flagged for further review if
          someone has the time and proximity to do so.</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:39 PM,
          Martijn van Exel <span dir="ltr"><<a
              href="mailto:m@rtijn.org" target="_blank"
              moz-do-not-send="true">m@rtijn.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">I am very happy to see this rekindled
              interest in TIGER cleanup!
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Having done a fair amount of backcountry exploring, I
                know that there is a wide range of road grades and
                aerial imagery alone is not enough to decide how
                navigable a roads is for a particular type of vehicle.
                Or, for that matter, what its access limitations are. I
                do agree with Clifford that leaving them as poorly
                aligned 'residential' roads is the worst possible
                situation. Yes, worse than deleting the road altogether.
                What I usually do is mark the road as track without a
                track grade tag. This seems to me to be the most
                acceptable generic solution for a remote mapper:
                acknowledging that something that could potentially be
                navigated by a 4 wheeled vehicle exists, without being
                more specific. Local knowledge can then come to the
                rescue to upgrade to unclassified if appropriate.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Another note on the MapRoulette side of things: I
                would very much appreciate your feedback on the new
                MapRoulette version Clifford linked to. Just email me,
                join #maproulette on slack, or file an issue at <a
                  href="https://github.com/maproulette/maproulette3/issues"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/maproule<wbr>tte/maproulette3/issues</a>. </div>
              <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Martijn</div>
                </font></span>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:08 PM,
                      Kevin Kenny <span dir="ltr"><<a
                          href="mailto:kevin.b.kenny+osm@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">kevin.b.kenny+osm@gmail.com</a>></span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div>
                      <div class="h5">
                        <div dir="ltr"><span>
                            <div class="gmail_extra">
                              <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12,
                                2018 at 12:55 PM, Kevin Broderick <span
                                  dir="ltr"><<a
                                    href="mailto:ktb@kevinbroderick.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">ktb@kevinbroderick.com</a>></span>
                                wrote:<br>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0 0 0
                                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div dir="ltr">Please, please, please
                                    don't convert rural roads to tracks
                                    based on imagery alone unless it's
                                    incredibly clear (and that would
                                    exclude anything with forest cover).
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>While many of them should
                                      definitely be unclassified, not
                                      residential, downgrading the main
                                      rural routes to tracks doesn't
                                      match local usage nor the
                                      functional topology of the road
                                      network in such places. There are
                                      a lot of USFS and BLM roads around
                                      here that are the only way to
                                      access significant areas, that
                                      commonly see normal passenger-car
                                      traffic and that can be traveled
                                      at reasonable speed in a sedan (or
                                      at 30+ MPH with a little ground
                                      clearance and driving skill),.
                                      Having these differentiated from
                                      true tracks (where even a stock
                                      4x4 is likely going to be
                                      operating at 15 MPH or less) is
                                      incredibly helpful for routing and
                                      visual use of the map, and it's a
                                      lot easier to recognize what I'd
                                      call "areas of questionable data"
                                      when they haven't been
                                      aggressively armchair-mapped.
                                      Also, the smoothness key is really
                                      helpful for tracks and impossible
                                      to map from orthoimagery.</div>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                          </span>
                          <div class="gmail_extra">Yes, yes, yes.<br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                          <div class="gmail_extra">In the rural areas
                            that I can travel to readily, TIGER is
                            downright hallucinatory (and there are few
                            enough mappers that cleanup has been
                            agonizingly slow). TIGER has roads in places
                            where no road is, ever was, or even ever
                            could be. (I've seen one going up a series
                            of cliffs totalling about 2000 feet of
                            ascent!) But even in 'leaves down' images,
                            it's nearly impossible to see the forest
                            roads, much less trace them, and there is
                            definitely a wide variation in quality. Some
                            of them are well-compacted sand and shale,
                            that once they've been rolled in the spring,
                            support driving at 30+ MPH. Others, I
                            wouldn't bring my Subaru on. (Although I've
                            been on a few of those in the ancient Ford
                            Explorrer that the Subaru replaced.)  Some
                            are gated, some, you simply have to decide
                            for yourself that they're not drivable.<br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                          <div class="gmail_extra">The 'dirt roads'
                            range from 'highway=path
                            abandoned:highway=track
                            smoothness=impassable' to 'highway=tertiary
                            surface=compacted smoothness=intermediate',
                            with no way for an armchair mapper to tell
                            among them.<br>
                          </div>
                          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                          </div>
                          <div class="gmail_extra">The old road maps
                            that they used to give out at gas stations
                            had, on many of these roads, "inquire
                            locally for conditions," which is still good
                            advice. The signage may say, "LIMITED
                            PURPOSE SEASONAL-USE ROAD: No maintenance
                            November 1-April 15" - but in practice,
                            they'll keep it open later in the Autumn
                            unless the snow comes early, and when they
                            open it in the spring depends on when the
                            crews can get it clear - it could be weeks
                            late if there's been a bad washout or rock
                            slide. There's absolutely no way to tag and
                            encode that sort of thing. Inquire locally
                            for conditions.<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <span class="">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                      Talk-us mailing list<br>
                      <a href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
                      <a
                        href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us"
                        rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.or<wbr>g/listinfo/talk-us</a><br>
                      <br>
                    </span></blockquote>
                </div>
                <br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        -- <br>
        <div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div>Kevin Broderick</div>
            <div><a href="mailto:ktb@kevinbroderick.com" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">ktb@kevinbroderick.com</a></div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
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      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a>
</pre>
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