<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Confusing it is, but if we can agree that the categories are about legal access and not suitability then we have made a big step towards clarification.</div><div>Have a look at the wiki page <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions">OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions.<br></a></div><div>Please note that this is not an approved page, but a proposal that started in 2008.<br></div><div>The physical properties can be tagged with surface, tracktype, and smoothness tags.</div><div>The access default values may change from country to country.</div><div>Also there maybe grey areas for access (which often is catered for by using "permissive" as access value).</div><div><br></div><div>Another note: I personally feel that redundant tagging is not helpful. The example of the redundant combination of "highway=path" (which impleies foot, bicyclke, and horse-riding access in OSM, unless the country table says something different) plus "bicycle=yes" is used by mappers with different meanings:</div><ul><li>a generic path that has been inserted from areal photographs by an armchair mapper who ticked all the default boxes in the iD editor.</li><li>a path that has been checked on the ground for the aspect of bicycle access</li><li>a path that is suitable for cycling (unfortunately, OpenCycleMap renders this situation exaclty like e dedicated cycle path, hence in some areas MTB fns have started doing this to see their preferred MTB tracks on the OCM map)</li></ul><div>Volker</div><div>(Italy)<br></div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 17:04, <<a href="mailto:talk-us-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-us-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. trail tagging (brad)<br>
2. Re: trail tagging (Mateusz Konieczny)<br>
3. Re: trail tagging (Martijn van Exel)<br>
4. Re: trail tagging (Joseph Eisenberg)<br>
<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 08:28:49 -0600<br>
From: brad <<a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: [Talk-us] trail tagging<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:136c191c-4067-eba9-0128-bc7a5ccf661e@fastmail.com" target="_blank">136c191c-4067-eba9-0128-bc7a5ccf661e@fastmail.com</a>><br>
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Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for a 4 <br>
wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the most <br>
part they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately the wiki <br>
says this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):<br>
<br>
/A non-specific path. //*Use **highway=footway <br>
<<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway</a>>**for paths <br>
mainly for walkers, **highway=cycleway <br>
<<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway</a>>**for one <br>
also usable by cyclists, **highway=bridleway <br>
<<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway</a>>**for ones <br>
available to horse riders as well as walkers *//and //highway=track <br>
<<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack</a>>//for ones <br>
which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles./<br>
<br>
I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user <br>
group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail <br>
tagging that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this? <br>
Perhaps if the international group likes the description as is, a <br>
clarification on the US road tagging wiki page?<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 16:58:27 +0200 (CEST)<br>
From: Mateusz Konieczny <<a href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" target="_blank">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>><br>
Cc: Talk Us <<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] trail tagging<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:Lcq5lY2--B-1@tutanota.com" target="_blank">Lcq5lY2--B-1@tutanota.com</a>><br>
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tl;dr: Please, add always surface tag and other similar tags as needed.<br>
<br>
I see that I answered at <br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:highway&diff=1844151&oldid=1843977" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:highway&diff=1844151&oldid=1843977</a> <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:highway&diff=1844151&oldid=1843977" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:highway&diff=1844151&oldid=1843977</a>><br>
<br>
It is a tricky topic. Lets start from disclaimers:<br>
<br>
(1) I am from Poland and unfamiliar with US local situation (though I am familiar with hiking)<br>
(2) I was involved in one of highway=path controversies - see <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389</a> <<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389</a>> <br>
<a href="https://gist.github.com/gravitystorm/ff5a6fdc695f08de1751" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://gist.github.com/gravitystorm/ff5a6fdc695f08de1751</a> <<a href="https://gist.github.com/gravitystorm/ff5a6fdc695f08de1751" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://gist.github.com/gravitystorm/ff5a6fdc695f08de1751</a>> <br>
<a href="https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1713" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1713</a> <<a href="https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1713" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1713</a>><br>
<br>
Note that highway=footway is used in multiple ways. it may be used to indicate (1) a paved footway<br>
(2) way primarily for walking.<br>
<br>
In both cases I would encourage tagging also physical characteristics - at least surface=*<br>
(StreetComplete is useful here).<br>
<br>
"Path and track indicate the physical characteristics of the way." - I would dispute this.<br>
There are highway=track that are high-quality asphalt, there are ones that are <br>
overgrown/muddy/with deep sand. Note that tracktype=* exists. I would argue the same for<br>
highway=path, though many argue that surface=unpaved may be safely assumed there.<br>
<br>
"cycleway/footway/bridleway should be discouraged, and should be only used if that is <br>
the only permitted usage" - also for cases like highway=footway + bicycle=yes?<br>
<br>
Apr 19, 2019, 4:28 PM by <a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>:<br>
<br>
> Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for a 4 wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the most part they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately the wiki says this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):<br>
> <br>
> > A non-specific path. <br>
> Use > highway <>> => footway <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway</a>>> for paths mainly for walkers, > highway <>> => cycleway <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway</a>>> for one also usable by cyclists, > highway <>> => bridleway <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway</a>>> for ones available to horse riders as well as walkers<br>
> and > highway <>> => track <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack</a>>> for ones which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles.<br>
> <br>
> I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail tagging that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this? Perhaps if the international group likes the description as is, a clarification on the US road tagging wiki page?<br>
> > <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a> <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a>><br>
><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 08:59:25 -0600<br>
From: Martijn van Exel <<a href="mailto:m@rtijn.org" target="_blank">m@rtijn.org</a>><br>
To: brad <<a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] trail tagging<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:2809283C-13AE-4EF8-9887-DDFFBBB97741@rtijn.org" target="_blank">2809283C-13AE-4EF8-9887-DDFFBBB97741@rtijn.org</a>><br>
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I hadn’t looked at that page in a while, but I’ve been using highway=path in the same way as you describe. Hiking trails, singletrack MTB. Footway I only tag in built up areas. <br>
What do other places in the world do?<br>
Martijn<br>
<br>
> On Apr 19, 2019, at 8:28 AM, brad <<a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for a 4 wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the most part they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately the wiki says this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):<br>
> <br>
> A non-specific path. Use highway <>=footway <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway</a>> for paths mainly for walkers, highway <>=cycleway <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway</a>> for one also usable by cyclists,highway <>=bridleway <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway</a>> for ones available to horse riders as well as walkers and highway <>=track <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack</a>> for ones which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles.<br>
> <br>
> I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail tagging that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this? Perhaps if the international group likes the description as is, a clarification on the US road tagging wiki page?<br>
> <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a> <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a>><br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 00:03:12 +0900<br>
From: Joseph Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com" target="_blank">joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: brad <<a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] trail tagging<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAP_2vPhH1UvpkNPqmBzNMNDzhKKmVZEzLZK=<a href="mailto:SqvXYaFBGWyAzw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">SqvXYaFBGWyAzw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
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> I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user group, anything other than a path<br>
<br>
It is very common to tag dirt footpaths as highway=footway in most<br>
parts of the world, if the path is designed for and used by people on<br>
foot.<br>
<br>
For example, here in Indonesia there are never signs that say you<br>
can't ride a bicycle on the highway=footway that connect mountain<br>
villages, but they are certainly not designed for bicycles and would<br>
be extremely technically challenging on a MTB. Horses are not<br>
prohibited either, but there are no horses in the area. So I map these<br>
paths as highway=footway<br>
<br>
In the USA I would think it reasonable to use highway=footway for dirt<br>
single-track trails designed for travel on foot, even if bicycles or<br>
horses are not specifically prohibited.<br>
<br>
I would use highway=path for MUPs (multi-use paths) that are<br>
specifically designed for use by both people on bikes and people<br>
walking or riding horses, along with the appropriate access tags.<br>
<br>
Also, I don't think this page is authoritative:<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a><br>
Note at the top is says "There is conflicting information on this<br>
topic at several places. Please see Talk:Highway tag usage and the<br>
Talk-US Mailing List for discussion."<br>
<br>
On 4/19/19, brad <<a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for a 4<br>
> wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the most<br>
> part they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately the wiki<br>
> says this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):<br>
><br>
> /A non-specific path. //*Use **highway=footway<br>
> <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway</a>>**for paths<br>
> mainly for walkers, **highway=cycleway<br>
> <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway</a>>**for one<br>
> also usable by cyclists, **highway=bridleway<br>
> <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway</a>>**for ones<br>
> available to horse riders as well as walkers *//and //highway=track<br>
> <<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack</a>>//for ones<br>
> which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles./<br>
><br>
> I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user<br>
> group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail<br>
> tagging that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this?<br>
> Perhaps if the international group likes the description as is, a<br>
> clarification on the US road tagging wiki page?<br>
> <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging</a><br>
><br>
<br>
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End of Talk-us Digest, Vol 137, Issue 5<br>
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