<div dir="ltr"><div>Nathan, thanks - I've been thinking over your email and use case since coffee this morning, and looking for the right questions to pick your brain too, so that we can get the documentation right in the NA tagging wiki, and all of us on the same page. I also started working up a a NA-specific and simplified JOSM tagging preset, so that's part of my impetus to really start getting into the weeds on this - part of my goal of the preset is to make it easy for all of us to tag consistently on the important tags ... so a huge part of that is making sure everything I do *agrees* with what everyone else understands those important tags to be!</div><div><br></div><div>In particular, I can see the value of that BNSF track segment document you've been working on with others, and completely agree that's also information that should be captured properly in our metadata as well, I'm just trying to understand myself whether the ref tag is likely to be the right tag to do that.<br></div><div><br></div><div>So far, I'm familiar with at least two different sets of "line numbers" in the US, and I haven't seen either used consistently before in the US in the way I understand that ref tag was meant to be used.</div><div><br></div><div>One is the number set that started with the ICC Valuation Map Sections 100 years ago. A lot of that data persisted long term, and I still see references in current documents, especially with NS material (I'm an east coast guy). I also still see that referenced and used in a good bit of my CSXT documentation. I've seen some of the related numbers also referred to as accounting numbers, and these do appear in certain current FRA records as well.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The second is the "newer" FRA Line Segment numbers. I believe the way FRA intended these to be used when they directed the creation of this system is the closest analogy we have to the German route numbers I was referring to. NS does keep them on their track charts, but I haven't seen them on much CSX documentation. Interestingly, even though these are meant to be used in the crossing number inventory forms, I often see this omitted in NS forms (even ones revised and completed recently), though it's usally completed in CSX forms.</div><div><br></div><div>Unfortunately, as I work as a bridge inspector and designer and not a track inspector (and have always worked peripherally to the railroads and not directly for them), I'm not directly working with the same information you are as a track inspector. Have these line segment numbers really finally been adopted as real, working route numbers?</div><div><br></div><div>Chuck</div><div>VA<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 12:30 AM Natfoot <<a href="mailto:natfoot@gmail.com" target="_blank">natfoot@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Sorry I saw your email in the ORM list and responded directly. <br>I find line segment numbers on track charts and timetables. I mostly work with lines that have left BNSF or its predecessors so I have line segments that were assigned by those railroads. Here is a great list of line segments of the BNSF/BN/GN/NP Etc. </div><div>. <a href="http://www.nprha.org/NP%20Track%20Segments%20of%20BNSF/BNSF%20Track%20Segments%20Version%2010.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.nprha.org/NP%20Track%20Segments%20of%20BNSF/BNSF%20Track%20Segments%20Version%2010.pdf</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm on line segments, 403, 405, 408, and 411. <br>And I don't trust the FRA database to be accurate.</div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Nathan P<br></div><div>email: <a href="mailto:natfoot@gmail.com" target="_blank">natfoot@gmail.com</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 8:45 PM Chuck Sanders <<a href="mailto:nathhad@gmail.com" target="_blank">nathhad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">I'd love any information you can send regarding any sort of route number in use here like you're discussing. I've worked around the US rail industry for several decades (federal bridge engineer), and have never heard of such a thing, so I'm very curious.</span><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">You're not talking about the FRAARCID in the FRA dataset, right?</div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">And I have to say, while "don't tag for the renderer" is almost always right, it also doesn't mean that a tag that works well already is automatically wrong, provided it also doesn't damage the validity of integrity of your dataset, and is consistent with the data scheme.</div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Thanks!</div><div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Chuck</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 10:38 PM Natfoot <<a href="mailto:natfoot@gmail.com" target="_blank">natfoot@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Chuck,<br><br>Thank You for your time fixing the reporting marks section. <br><br>Railroad Line numbers do exist for railroads in the United States and Canada.
</div>Ref= is for the use of line numbers.
I can send you links to line numbers. Line numbers were given to a line by the railroad when it was laid and often lasts it's entire lifetime, without a change. The other way I see it used is to identify what track number it is: Eg Main 1, or you are in a yard and there is track 1, 2, 3, etc. Both of these are examples of track numbers. <div><br></div><div> I will discourage the changing of in use tags for the soul purpose of editing for the renderer. This is a renderer problem and not a problem with OSM. Here is the wiki about not editing for the renderer <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer</a> <br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div> There is a OpenRailwayMap email list. I was just there chatting about how Traffic Control is different from Train Protection. I will agree that ORM under represents the data from North America that is already within the map. Please make these suggestions in the ORM list to make the ORM renderer more usable as you have described. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Quote from your email:<br>" The label is occasionally the spelled out operator name, but most commonly (better than 90% of examples) the operator reporting marks, which serve as a standardized shorthand. Even the names, as we tag them in the name field, are rarely used to refer to the lines, and are essentially never used on mapping here.They're the absolute last-choice designator, and you *really* have to hunt to find any rail map in the US (including by the operators) that labels any line by name." " That's the US industry standard." </div><div><br></div><div> All of this paragraph are style choices when rendering the data from within OSM. If you would like this to change, talk to the ORM list or make a better renderer. I will reject your assertion that we should dumb down the map just becuase that is the way TOPO had it. If you are a railroad owner and you are worried about the amount of information on OSM that is a valid argument but that is not the way you are presenting this as of now. </div><div> </div><div>Thanks for your thoughts on all of this. I agree that OpenStreetMap, Open Railway Map, and the renderer could be improved to better show off what we have here in North America. Researchers utilize OSM as we have the most up to date railway map in the country of any data source and it is important to maintain standards.
I believe that the wiki pertaining to railway=* is confusing and the addition of continent specific tagging makes it more difficult to understand. If you would like to help me with cataloging this information this is one of the side projects. But right now I am over on Open Historical Map adding railroads over there.<br> </div><div>Best Regards,</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div></div><div>Nathan P<br></div><div>email: <a href="mailto:natfoot@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">natfoot@gmail.com</a></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>