<div dir="auto"><div><div dir="auto">I note there is no mention of the tracktype tag, which I always use with highway=track (mapping in Europe)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I notice kangaroos in one of the sample photos from Zeke Farwell, but otherwise they look exactly the same as my typical highway=track in Europe. I would have added tracktypes grade2 to grade4 to them</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Volker</div><div dir="auto">Padova, Italy</div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 20 Feb 2021, 04:26 , <<a href="mailto:talk-us-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-us-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Usage of highway=track in the United States (stevea)<br>
2. Re: Usage of highway=track in the United States (Tod Fitch)<br>
3. Re: Usage of highway=track in the United States (Clifford Snow)<br>
4. Re: Usage of highway=track in the United States (brad)<br>
5. Re: Usage of highway=track in the United States (Zeke Farwell)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:07:28 -0800<br>
From: stevea <<a href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">steveaOSM@softworkers.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Usage of highway=track in the United States<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:81B831CF-BFAA-4F32-9330-90275020D915@softworkers.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">81B831CF-BFAA-4F32-9330-90275020D915@softworkers.com</a>><br>
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<br>
For tens of thousands of edits, including what must be thousands of highway=track tags I have added to brand new ways (and TIGER ways which I discover are NOT TIGER's default of highway=residential, implying pavement, but are clearly by imagery unpaved, rural and more often than not, fully devoid of houses / residences), highway=track means to me:<br>
<br>
• a "dirt road" (first and foremost, as in unpaved, or perhaps gravel), whether a public right-of-way (sometimes) or on private land (far more common in my experience),<br>
<br>
• a "double-track" unpaved highway (as opposed to "single-track," how a mountain biker might distinguish, I tag those highway=path),<br>
<br>
• usually, almost always "rural" (quite far away from conurbations / cities, even towns, villages or hamlets, though there ARE such things around these, which I'm much more likely to tag highway=residential + surface=unpaved if there are residences along them),<br>
<br>
• "agricultural tracks" in areas of agriculture and forestry, which here are "most of them." Although as I mention, on somewhat rare occasion, especially rural areas will have "dirt roads" that might be called highway=unclassified + surface=unpaved, but I (somewhat lazily?) tag these highway=track instead. If one of these unpaved roads is identifiably residential (or even tertiary, due to wide-area access and / or traffic amounts) — these are all very rural and / or mountainous and of difficult, uncommon access unless you live there or are making a delivery — I'll use highway=residential or highway=tertiary with surface=unpaved to distinctly note this. But I've noticed I don't seem to do this with highway=unclassified (+ surface=unpaved), even though I probably should.<br>
<br>
I do NOT use highway=track on a private driveway, believing that an unpaved driveway (there are many, but not common) is best tagged with highway=service + service=driveway + surface=unpaved (or dirt, or gravel...) + access=private or access=destination. I don't always add access tags, as I don't always know them, but if I DO know them I add them. If there is a barrier=gate (visible in imagery or in my personal experience), I'll add that tag to a node on the driveway, usually quite close to its "host" or "parent" road (the road the driveway "roots" to).<br>
<br>
I should probably add surface=unpaved to highway=track more often than I do, as I believe highway=track strongly implies (or actually "means") unpaved. But I do (some of the time, not usually or often) add a tracktype=gradeN tag, with N=1 (ALMOST so smoothly compacted "unpaved" that it approaches the usability of a paved road: higher speeds on a straightaway up to maybe 45 MPH / 70 km/h, no need for the added safety of a high-clearance or a 4WD vehicle on a road like that...) down to N=5, where a "double-track" (of parallel tire tracks) is so faint upon the land that it is almost invisible (but isn't). Our tracktype wiki offers good photos for fairly easy-to-identify grades to assign for these five values, this isn't difficult.<br>
<br>
I should note that in 2021 in the USA, "most" roads that "most" people encounter (around here, in my experience, YMMV...) are surface=paved. Gravel or dirt roads are certainly found, but they are less and less common. I do make it a point to identify them, either with a highway=track tag (again, implies not paved), or an explicit surface=* tag if I know the surface.<br>
<br>
These have evolved over my dozen years of editing in OSM in approximately the order given: I've gotten more likely in the last few years to add additional tags (at first tracktype, now with better surface=* and even sometimes smoothness=* tags). Me joining OSM fairly soon after the TIGER import in the mid-2000s has affected this, but those more-long-ago habits have been supplanted by better tagging (tracktype, surface, smoothness...) more recently, up to today and into the future.<br>
<br>
I hope this helps,<br>
SteveA<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:13:57 -0800<br>
From: Tod Fitch <<a href="mailto:tod@fitchfamily.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tod@fitchfamily.org</a>><br>
To: Frederik Ramm <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">frederik@remote.org</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Usage of highway=track in the United States<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:7B627173-5658-4A58-91CB-924CAA77974B@fitchfamily.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">7B627173-5658-4A58-91CB-924CAA77974B@fitchfamily.org</a>><br>
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<br>
tl;dr - I hope that a general purpose router will not route over a way tagged as “highway=track”. None of those in my area are suitable and/or legal for use in a standard motor vehicle.<br>
<br>
Long version - In my little part of the world, tracks are most often for either farm/ranch access. Or they were when they were created. If they are still being used for farm/ranch access they are almost certainly “access=private”.<br>
<br>
There are a number of local “wilderness parks” owned and managed by the county that were once private ranch land. Many of the tracks in those areas have been re-purposed for hiking, mountain biking and equestrian use. In this case, they might be maintained enough for the agency managing the park (or emergency responders) to access with four wheel drive pickup trucks. I can’t think of any of them that allow public motor vehicle access though. For what it is worth, I map these as something like:<br>
<br>
highway=track<br>
surface=unpaved<br>
motor_vehicle=no<br>
horse=yes<br>
bicycle=yes<br>
foot=yes<br>
dogs=leashed | no<br>
<br>
With the various *=yes tags based on local signage, etc.<br>
<br>
I am not an off-highway vehicle person so the track type rating is something I am not comfortable tagging, and since most of these do not allow motor vehicles I guess that is moot.<br>
<br>
In any case, my presumption is that if it is a track then it is very likely not available for public motor vehicle use.<br>
<br>
If the track has not been maintained well enough for a motor vehicle then I will change the above tagging to be “highway=path” (they are multipurpose). And, on rare occasions, will also add “abandoned:highway=track” in addition to the current “highway=path”. Generally, I only use the lifecycle tagging if there is an isolated section of the way that hasn’t been overgrown into being a narrow trail. This is mostly to avoid armchair mappers “upgrading” it to a track based on aerial imagery.<br>
<br>
There are exceptions to tracks being private or restricted on vehicle access: The US Forest Service has a number of “roads” that are, on the ground, indistinguishable from a private farm or ranch track in width, condition, etc. These are open to motor vehicles with sufficient ground clearance. They are almost certainly signed on the ground and shown on the public domain Forest Service recreation maps. There are also unpaved roads in the desert or in the mountains which are passible with a normal passenger vehicle, these are wider and generally graded periodically. I tag those as either “highway=service” or “highway=unclassified” as seems appropriate when I survey the area.<br>
<br>
Cheers!<br>
<br>
> On Feb 19, 2021, at 4:30 PM, Frederik Ramm <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">frederik@remote.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hi,<br>
> <br>
> On 2/20/21 00:56, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:<br>
>> US mappers: how do you apply highway=track in the US?<br>
> <br>
> If I may add a question: If you use highway=track what kind of access do<br>
> you think is implied? Would it generally be safe to assume that I can<br>
> drive along a highway=track with my Jeep if highway=track is all that<br>
> OpenStreetMap tells me, or should I look for an explicit access=yes or<br>
> motor_vehicle=yes before I do?<br>
> <br>
> Asking with DWG work in mind, where we often get complaints like "your<br>
> map shows a private track trough my property pls delete immediately or<br>
> else". Then we usually offer to add access=private. But sometimes I<br>
> wonder, is it perhaps more likely for a random highway=track to be<br>
> private? Should that maybe even be the default?<br>
> <br>
> Bye<br>
> Frederik<br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Frederik Ramm ## eMail <a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">frederik@remote.org</a> ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"<br>
> <br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:31:51 -0800<br>
From: Clifford Snow <<a href="mailto:clifford@snowandsnow.us" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">clifford@snowandsnow.us</a>><br>
To: "Brian M. Sperlongano" <<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: talk-us <<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Usage of highway=track in the United States<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CADAoPLqEZ1J3HGiyJatrM48USpcLGZOAgULU5Tvm1nnHqEUTyA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">CADAoPLqEZ1J3HGiyJatrM48USpcLGZOAgULU5Tvm1nnHqEUTyA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 3:57 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <<a href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> The usage of the tag highway=track is controversial. Through<br>
> discussion with both US-based and foreign mappers, it is apparent that<br>
> this tag is used differently in the US than it is in the rest of the<br>
> world. Further, the usage in the US appears to be different from how<br>
> it is documented on the OSM wiki[1].<br>
><br>
> The wiki description is "roads for mostly agricultural use, forest tracks<br>
> etc."<br>
><br>
<br>
Around me highway=track is usually associated with some logging roads<br>
located in the mountains. But not exclusively. Some logging roads are added<br>
as unclassified. While they mostly serve as roads for logging trucks they<br>
have other uses. Most of the logging roads have a metal gate blocking<br>
access although only a few have been mapped. The companies logging in the<br>
area put up gates to protect their forests. Some farms the roads to the<br>
fields are tagged as service and others as track. For agriculture use I<br>
could go either way.<br>
<br>
For a while people were showing logging roads as service since their<br>
purpose was to pull logs out of the forest. I haven't seen much of that<br>
recently.<br>
<br>
><br>
> In the US, the 2007 TIGER import assigned highway=track to CFCC code<br>
> A51, which is described as "Vehicular trail, road passable only by 4WD<br>
> vehicle, unseparated".<br>
><br>
<br>
Apparently around me Census never got the memo. They added logging roads as<br>
residential. My county has been pretty much cleaned up but there is much<br>
more to be done.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Clifford<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
@osm_washington<br>
<a href="http://www.snowandsnow.us" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.snowandsnow.us</a><br>
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 20:19:45 -0700<br>
From: brad <<a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Usage of highway=track in the United States<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:3ea3636e-bdb5-c158-7d79-d5f1f7131e2a@fastmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">3ea3636e-bdb5-c158-7d79-d5f1f7131e2a@fastmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
I use track if its a very rugged road. In addition to farming and <br>
ranching roads, in the west there are many roads created for mining or <br>
logging that are mostly used for recreation now. Some could be driven <br>
with a high clearance auto, but more often you need a 4wd vehicle or a <br>
motorcycle. If I've been there I always add a smoothness tag because <br>
that is the best tag to distinguish between a high clearance road, a 4wd <br>
road, and a road that any car could drive on. The names of the <br>
smoothness tags are unfortunate, but the descriptions are good enough. <br>
If it's a good enuf for a car and it goes far enough to connect to <br>
another road, it probably qualifies for at least a highway=unclassified <br>
tag.<br>
<br>
A router should never route on a track unless it's explicitly routing <br>
for an adventure.<br>
<br>
I think it's implied that it is public unless stated otherwise, but <br>
there are many tracks that have been imported that are not properly <br>
tagged. This is from my point of view, in Colorado, where there is a <br>
lot of public land. This may be different in farming country. Even <br>
here, if it's a relatively short track that doesn't go anywhere and it <br>
is not clearly on public land, there is a good chance it is private.<br>
<br>
Someone mentioned that we use the tags differently than the rest of the <br>
world. I don't think that is correct as we have had several comments on <br>
the tagging list from Australians who use the tag similarly to how we <br>
use it.<br>
<br>
Brad<br>
<br>
On 2/19/21 4:56 PM, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:<br>
> US mappers: how do you apply highway=track in the US?<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:23:51 -0500<br>
From: Zeke Farwell <<a href="mailto:ezekielf@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ezekielf@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: talk-us <<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Usage of highway=track in the United States<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAH-nfWNJN16m8OAxj83LZuLp3x41iKxrf=<a href="mailto:ZEqbYjBjLrUMTBsg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ZEqbYjBjLrUMTBsg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Here are some images I've collected of the type of thing I generally tag as<br>
highway=track: <a href="https://ibb.co/album/N976VK" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://ibb.co/album/N976VK</a><br>
<br>
Basically rural routes used by some vehicles, but where maintenance is<br>
minimal or non-existent, and 4 wheel drive may be a good idea or even a<br>
requirement for not getting stuck. A few are well maintained enough that<br>
they might serve as a driveway in a rural area. In that case I might go<br>
with highway=service, surface=unpaved instead.<br>
<br>
It doesn't seem to me that any legal access information can be implied by<br>
highway=track. Some are public. Some are private.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Zeke<br>
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