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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>I don’t think the point is that we should be tagging roads that connect to towns of 2000 people as trunk, but more that we can tag roads with similar <i>physical</i> characteristics as that particular road as trunk.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com">brad</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:07 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Talk-us] Update on potential highway classification reform</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>That road connects to a town of about 2000. That really seems like a stretch for a trunk road. In my read of the wiki, it doesn't pass. <br>From the wiki: "Trunk- The most important roads in a country's system that aren't motorways. (Need not necessarily be a divided highway.) "<br>Even if it's the only one in the area, it isn't one of the most important roads in the country. <br>Secondary at best. wiki: "(Often link towns)"<br><br>Maybe it's a bad example<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 5/18/21 6:46 PM, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The link below[1] is a picture of the A87 highway in the Scottish highlands. It's not Alaska, but it's one of the most remote parts of the UK and is a trunk highway in the British system. In the British classification system (and in OSM generally), there is no requirement that trunk roads have expressway-like characteristics, simply that they're the most important non-motorway road in a particular area.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[1] <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vLZ7XC6LZj9LZl9XentKrA">https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vLZ7XC6LZj9LZl9XentKrA</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Here's another photo[2] from just down the road. On the right you'll note a mailbox and a gravel driveway leading to someone's house:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[2] <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/OAzXBq0zSXeicY8F50oXow">https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/OAzXBq0zSXeicY8F50oXow</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The British had no problem recognizing that the most important roads in a remote area will be of a much lower physical quality than the most important road in built-up areas. And thus, a low zoom map of Scotland[3] meaningfully shows the network of roads that exists, even though those roads are of lower quality than what you might find in the cities.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[3] <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/56.845/-4.166">https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/56.845/-4.166</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Personally, I think it's perfectly fine that a "high importance" road in Alaska looks different from a "high importance" road in New York City.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Dave Swarthout <<a href="mailto:daveswarthout@gmail.com">daveswarthout@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hell, the highway classification situation in Alaska drives me nuts. A few years ago, someone came along and promoted all the Primary highways in Alaska to Trunk because they connect major population centers. But these highways have no other characteristic required of a trunk road. They are not dual carriageways, have hundreds of driveways, cross streets, traffic signals and RR grade crossings. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Good luck with getting this all worked out.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 3:08 PM Kevin Kenny <<a href="mailto:kevin.b.kenny@gmail.com" target="_blank">kevin.b.kenny@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 1:47 PM Russell Nelson <<a href="mailto:nelson@crynwr.com" target="_blank">nelson@crynwr.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><br>On 5/17/21 5:54 PM, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:<br>> State-specific criteria have been drafted so far for: MA, MS, NH, RI, <br>> VT, TX, and WA.<br>><br>> In order to demonstrate what the new classification would look like on <br>> the map, the New England mappers have put together a temporary live <br>> demo[2] which shows what this new arrangement would look like at the <br>> motorway and trunk level.<br><br>This looks tolerable. I wonder how it would be applied in NY? There are <br>several dead-end trunk roads. This seems wrong to me. Also, the entirety <br>of the Adirondack Park is empty, which doesn't work for any community <br>north of the park.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The definition of 'trunk road' still appears to be 'main route between regionally important population centers'. What is 'regionally important' in northeastern New York will depend, I suppose, on what granularity you consider for 'region'. I suspect that OSM intends 'region' to be something along the lines of 'United States' if not 'North America', rather than something like 'Saint Lawrence County'. For that reason, I've been doing some rough sketches (nothing in Brian's server yet) of what the network might look like in eastern NY. In order to have a reasonably broadly applicable definition of 'population center' I've been using 'incorporated community or CDP > 25k inhabitants' (something of an arbitrary cutoff).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It makes sense to me that there are no trunk roads inside the Adirondack Park apart from the Northway. There's nothing in the park for a trunk to serve. Are Tupper Lake, Ticonderoga, Dannemora, Saranac Lake/Harrietstown, or Lake Placid/North Elba 'population centers?" <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I'm finding that even on the north side of the park the population centers that would define the trunk roads are pretty far apart: Watertown, Orrawa, Cornwall, Montréal, Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Burlington. (I haven't dug deep into the populations of lesser towns on the Canadian side to see if anything else pops up.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If we use 'part of the main route joining communities >25k population' as a working definition of 'trunk', then a few corner cases pop up: NY8, inside the park, appears so that Burlington will be linked with Utica, for instance. There appears to be no 'main route' between Cornwall and Utica; I'm not all that comfortable with promoting minor county roads into trunks! You're nearer to there than I am - how _do_ you connect Cornwall with anywhere else?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If we go by FHWA classifications, NY30 and NY3 appear at least in part, but NY8 disappears. The suburban arterials of NY85 and NY32 would end in Bethlehem, because there's no 'population center' beyond there for them to serve. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I think it's entirely acceptable for trunks to dead-end where the reason for their existence ends. Thus, NY27 would be a trunk into Southampton (population >25k) but downgraded past there because there's no longer a large community beyond that. The key thing is that we shouldn't have isolated islands of trunk roads appearing and disappearing simply because physical characteristics aren't up to spec on short sections.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Going with a tighter definition of 'population center' starts giving perverse results in both New York and New England. For instance 'any county seat is a population center' promotes some Vermont villages of <1000 inhabitants, and in northeastern New York has the effect of promoting Plattsburgh, Elizabethtown, Malone, Lake Pleasant, Lowville, Canton and Fort Edward - and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with declaring any of those communities to be a 'regionally important population center!' Sorry, Potsdam, but at least you get to keep US 11 (because it joins Burlington with Watertown).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We're still struggling with the density extremes of the Big City and the Big Woods, so your input is welcome!<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Talk-us mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dave Swarthout<br>Homer, Alaska<br>Chiang Mai, Thailand<br>Travel Blog at <a href="http://dswarthout.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://dswarthout.blogspot.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Talk-us mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Talk-us mailing list</pre><pre><a href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a></pre><pre><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>